The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Planning Permission

Delyth Jewell AC: 1. What is the process followed by the Welsh Government to overturn a decision by a local authority planning committee to reject planning permission? OAQ54087

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank the Member for that question. When local planning authorities refuse planning permission for a development, the applicant has a right of appeal to the Welsh Ministers. Most appeals are determined by the planning inspector, appointed on behalf of Welsh Ministers. A small number are recovered for determination by decision of the Welsh Ministers themselves.

Delyth Jewell AC: I thank the First Minister for his answer. First Minister, nobody is in a better position, surely, to make informed decisions about local planning than the people who live there. In 2016, Caerphilly councillors voted against granting planning permission for a housing development at Hendredenny. Local residents were rightly angry to see this decision overturned by a Minister in Cardiff bay, and councillors are set to vote again on this tomorrow after planning chiefs approved the application. The reality is that the infrastructure isn't there to be able to cope with 260 additional homes in terms of roads, school places and GP access. Only a fraction of these new homes are termed affordable, so the benefit to the local area seems questionable to say the least. Thirty-five letters of objection have been lodged, and there are also concerns about the impact on the environment of building on a greenfield site. First Minister, isn't it time Welsh Government reformed planning policy to make it about planning in the meaningful sense of the word, by involving local voices from the start, and building the provision of suitable infrastructure and services into development plans from the beginning rather than imposing unwanted projects on local residents?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, of course, I thank Delyth Jewell for that additional question. It's important to be clear that the right of an appeal is a statutory right. It is set out in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, and the appeals process that is followed in Wales was revised as recently as 2017, and the rules that govern the appeals process here in Wales were agreed here in this National Assembly. So, I hear what the Member says about the need to revise them further, but they were revised, and they were revised here on the floor of this Assembly as recently as the year before last. The changes were designed to make the system more proportionate, cost effective, and to open it more to public participation in the appeals process. It's a very rare occurrence, Llywydd, when an appeal is recovered for determination by the Welsh Ministers. On average, about five planning appeals in any one year—less than 1 per cent of all appeals submitted to the planning inspectorate—are recovered to the Welsh Ministers, and they are recovered in circumstances that are bound by the rules.
In the case of Hendredenny, the particular example to which the Member referred, there was no statutory challenge to the Welsh Minister's decision. People have six weeks in which they can go to the High Court to challenge that decision. No challenge was mounted. So, the decision is final. There are further matters, as Delyth Jewell said, to be determined now by the local planning authority, and I'm sure that they will bear in mind the issues that she has raised and that have been raised by local residents.

Nick Ramsay AC: First Minister, a similar point made by Delyth Jewell. [Interruption.] I hope I'm not causing the crying upstairs. [Interruption.] No, it's not my baby; I hope not anyway. [Laughter.]
Troy House in Monmouth is a grade II listed property, dating back to the seventeenth century, located in the Mitchel Troy ward in Monmouthshire. It's been in a poor state of decline for many years. It's been a hospital at different points in time, it's been a school, and it's currently empty. Monmouthshire County Council approved planning permission to save the building and convert it into flats, but the decision has been overturned by the Welsh Government inspector on the grounds of it being on a flood plain. Now, I know you're probably not going to be able to go into the details of that application, and I'm not asking you to, but if you've got a situation where you've got a grade II listed building that is declining each year, in a serious state of disrepair and there is a plan of some sort on the table to try and restore that building, then there's obviously great concern when the Welsh Government says that that can't go ahead. What can you do? What safeguards can you put into the planning process to make sure that, okay, when issues like this are overturned by the Welsh Government, there is protection in place to make sure that a listed building isn't simply allowed to fall into ruin and be lost to the nation?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Nick Ramsay, Llywydd, for that important point. I'm familiar, as it happens, with Troy House and I understand the point that he makes about the need to take into account in planning decisions the listed status of buildings of that sort. As he says, in this instance, the Planning Inspectorate made their ruling on the grounds that it was not a suitable building for conversion into flats, because of flooding risk. And, to be clear with Members, Llywydd, the Planning Inspectorate is entirely independent of the Welsh Government. It operates through a set of rules that we lay down, but no Minister ever interferes in a decision that a planning inspector makes. The Minister with planning responsibilities has heard the points that Nick Ramsay has made, and we will look again to make sure that the rules within which the Planning Inspectorate operate take into account the points that have been made about the need to have due regard to the listed status of buildings when making those determinations.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Tech Valleys

Alun Davies AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Tech Valleys programme? OAQ54047

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Alun Davies for that. Investment in skills, infrastructure and cyber security are amongst the early projects of the Tech Valleys programme. The expert advisory group continues to shape the £100 million that is to be invested over the 10 years of the programme so that we maximise its impact and support emerging technologies.

Alun Davies AC: First Minister, the announcement of a £100 million programme of investment in Ebbw Vale, in Blaenau Gwent, in the future of the economy of Blaenau Gwent, was welcomed by people both within the borough and across the Heads of the Valleys. It demonstrates a real commitment from the Welsh Government to the economy of Ebbw Vale and Blaenau Gwent, and it also demonstrates a real vote of confidence in the Heads of the Valleys as a place where we can do business. First Minister, can you outline to us today how you expect to see the Tech Valleys programme developing over the coming years and when you believe the people of Blaenau Gwent will see the benefits of this programme of investment?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank the Member for that question. I want to thank him for all the work that he did in bringing the programme to fruition and for the way in which, week after week, he makes sure that the interests of his constituents are always raised here on the floor of the National Assembly. And his constituents will, I think, be glad to know that there is already progress—tangible progress—that they will be able to see across the range of strands that make up that complex programme. He will know of the plan to bring TVR to Ebbw Vale. The Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport recently met with senior executives. The company confirmed real progress in finding new equity investment to support pre-production vehicle development, and the tender process is now complete for refurbishment of the building in Rassau, which is TVR's preferred location for full car production. At the same time, planning permissions are now secured for both the Rhyd y Blew and Lime Avenue sites in Ebbw Vale, with building work to commence this year in both cases. Thales, and the National Digital Exploitation Centre—Thales have already moved to their project office in Ebbw Vale. Bids are now in for the £7 million discovery gateways fund for the Valleys park programme, and decisions on funding are expected imminently. And I know that Alun Davies will be especially interested in the new £1.5 million investment that we have agreed in shared apprenticeships in the Tech Valley area—a vote of confidence not simply in the Heads of the Valleys, but in young people in that area, and our determination to make sure that they have a successful future.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: First Minister, great news to have this big investment in the Blaenau Gwent area. The Tech Valleys strategic plan states its aim of creating 1,500 new jobs over the next 10 years. How will the Welsh Government monitor progress towards meeting the aim, and will the First Minister commit to making an annual report on this project to the Assembly, and to ensure that promised benefits are delivered for the people of Blaenau Gwent, according to the plans?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. He's right to point to the ambitious number of jobs that we want to create as a result of the Tech Valleys programme. There are construction jobs expected in the coming months, there are the apprenticeships to which I have already referred, and there will be that investment we want to make in the landscapeof that valley community in order to make the most of the huge natural assets that it has. Ministers will report here, Llywydd, regularly on the progress of the programme. I'm always glad to answer questions on it, and I know that my colleague Ken Skates reports regularly to Members on how the programme, which is a 10-year programme, with £100 million behind it, is being delivered on the ground.

Leanne Wood AC: First Minister, last time I asked you about your plans to boost the economy in former coalfield areas, I specifically asked you about your economic regeneration plans for the Rhondda, and I was disappointed to receive an answer from you that talked a lot about your plans for spending in a constituency in the Gwent valleys but, as far as the Rhondda is concerned, your answer can be paraphrased as 'not much'. Have you since worked out that the Rhondda is not in Gwent? And, if so, what do you plan to do, from a technological perspective, or indeed any other economic regeneration perspective, about the area that has one of the highest numbers of people without decent work in the whole of this country?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank the Member. I'm not in need of geographical instruction from her. The Tech Valleys programme will be one that, of course, goes beyond the areas that I have referred to in answering the question from the Member who put it to me. Let me give the Member just one example of how the project will go beyond and into her area: we will publish the feasibility report from the project Skyline very soon. The project looked at the possibility of communities managing the landscape that surrounds their town or village, and is focused on three valley communities in Ystradowen, Caerau and Treherbert. That report will provide proposals addressing issues around governance, environmental protection, social inclusion and the sustainability of business models for community stewardship of landscape assets. And I'm quite sure that residents in her constituency are every bit as attached to the area in which they live, keen to take community responsibility for the stewardship of those assets, and the programme will support them in doing so.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. First Minister, I have a right to ask you a question in Welsh in this Parliament, but my 84-year-old father doesn’t have a right to ask a question in Welsh to his GP, his optician, his pharmacist or his dentist. Now, five years ago, you said personally that the core of the case for improving the use of the Welsh language in primary care is the possibility that it’s only in their first language that a patient who is vulnerable can express him or herself in full. Today, a cross-party committee of this Senedd, including Labour Members, state that there’s been very little, if any, progress made by the regulations that you’ve just published in terms of giving people in Wales the right to receive health services in the language of their choice. Why, after 84 years, is my father still treated as a second-class citizen?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, may I say once again, Llywydd, in my view, it is very important to receive services through the medium of Welsh, particularly in the health sector, and that is why we recently published new standards at the end of May, which extend to primary healthcare. Of course, it’s a long-term project to grow people within the workforce who are ready and have the skills to deliver those services through the medium of Welsh. But, as a Government, we’ve been working with people in the field, with the royal colleges, with the health boards, to persuade people who are ready and able to deliver services through the medium of Welsh to do so in the first place, and also to attract more people into the field.
Yesterday, I visited the university at Aberystwyth and I met with people there who have just succeeded in securing again the right to train in the field of nursing, and developing people who are able to deliver services through the medium of Welsh is a central part of their work.
So, we are making progress, but there's more to be done, of course. But the fundamental point is that people have the right to use the Welsh language and to receive public services through the medium of Welsh, and it's something that we support, naturally, as a Government.

Adam Price AC: But, Minister, you yourself have identified this as a huge vacuum five years ago. Where have you been? The committee itself says that we are still as far away from delivering equality in terms of language choice as we were at the beginning of this Assembly. There's been no progress.
And may I turn to another issue that is centrally important to the future of the language, namely employment? In those areas where the Welsh language is the community language, among the major employers are our universities, and we have heard recently about the grave financial problems at Trinity Saint David and at Bangor. Now, in the past, when we have raised problems within individual universities, your Government has said, 'Well, they're independent organisations and we can't intervene.' Given how grave the situation is now and how grave the financial crisis is within the sector, could I ask you to confirm whether you, as the UK Government has declared, would allow a university institution in Wales to go bust?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I want to go back to the first point the Member raised because I don't agree with him at all that there has been no progress in relation to the provision of Welsh language services in the health sector. It's one, I think, of the really heartening things that has changed in the last decade that when I go into hospitals in any part of Wales now I see members of staff wearing visible signs that tell you that they are able and prepared to provide a service through the medium of Welsh. We have to encourage those people, we have to support those people, we have to find more of them, of course, but it doesn't help the cause of doing that to act as though those people who have been part of the real effort through the 'Mwy na geiriau' programme—if we dismiss their efforts and act as though nothing at all has been achieved. A great deal has been achieved. The position is very different to what it was. That isn't to say, and particularly in areas like psychiatry, that there isn't a lot more that we want to do, but we bring about improvement by encouraging people who are willing to be part of that effort rather than dismissing their efforts as though they had made no difference.
Now, when my colleague the education Minister says to Members that higher education institutions are independent bodies, they have to be that. It is simply not right that we should ever seek to interfere in the decisions that they make. As a Government, we have worked hard to sustain the sector here in Wales. We've worked with the sector in order to be able to do that. That's why I was, when I went to Aberystwyth yesterday, determined to meet with the vice-chancellor and her colleagues to hear about the work that they are doing and what we can do to support them in their efforts. It's why the education Minister met with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales earlier today in order to carry on that effort. We understand that there are challenges. Of course there are challenges, a decade into austerity, in every part of what the public service tries to achieve in Wales, and higher education is no different. But the difference between the higher education sector in England and that in Wales is that we work with the sector with the aim always of supporting it rather than simply saying that market forces will apply and that those who go to the wall will go to the wall regardless.

Adam Price AC: Many people will feel particularly uncomfortable in seeing universities in Wales making hundreds of staff redundant while at the same time paying salaries to their vice-chancellors, who, according to the latest HEFCW figures, earn £254,000 on average. Now, outwith the university sector, the salary of the chief executive of the Development Bank of Wales is among the highest in the public sector, and that, I suppose, reflectsthe importance of the role. In light of that, can you tell us why you, as a Government, as a matter of policy, have set a precedent in agreeing that the post holdercan undertake a non-executive employed position beyond his full-time employment in the bank?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me say that I am not in favour of those who are paid at the top of our public services being paid at levels that separate them from the rest of their workforce. It's why the Welsh Government has a ratio that's amongst the narrowest in all public sector bodies in Wales between what is paid at the top of the range and those people who are paid less in our public service itself. That is true in the higher education sector as well, although the decisions that are made about the salaries of vice-chancellors are absolutely not decisions made by Ministers, nor should they be interfered with by Ministers.
There are sectors where the public sector now operates where you are in a competitive market. That is true in the health service, we know, where scarce people have to be found to come to work in Wales. It's why we offer to our GPs—and in parts of Wales that the Member himself represents—additional finance and funding to get people to come and work in parts of Wales where otherwise we would not be able to attract people. It is just inevitable—we may not like it, but it is inevitable that where public services are competing for scarce resources and people who can choose wherever they want to go and work, the amount we pay them becomes part of the way in which we have to find ways of bringing people to discharge these really important responsibilities.

Leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, do you believe that healthcare services in Wales are meeting the needs of our young people?

Mark Drakeford AC: I think that health services in Wales meet the needs of all our people to an extent that people beyond Wales regard as remarkable. Of course, that does not mean—and no doubt the Member's about to offer me an example of where there are things that we would like to see done better. Health services and young people have often been a struggle. There is long-standing research that tells you that a GP, for example, will spend less time with somebody under 20 than any other person that they see. So, making sure that the health service is properly geared to understand and meet the needs of young people is something that has been a long-term issue in health inequalities, and there will be examples, I've no doubt, of where there is more we would wish to do.

Paul Davies AC: The First Minister's absolutely right: there are things that can be done better because there are concerns in Wales that there are currently only two child and adolescent mental health services centres open to young people in Wales, only offering a total of 27 beds. Now, the third sector has had their capacity reduced to 12 beds from 24, but due to concerns with standards at the centre back in July last year, Welsh patients were removed and the centre now only takes patients from England. As these centres are currently operating under restricted capacity or have admission restrictions in place, the child and adolescent mental health services centres in Wales are not effectively meeting the needs of high-risk patients. Some patients from Wales are being treated out-of-area, adding an additional burden on them and their families. Now, this limited capacity was actually raised back in 2013, and yet it seems to me that no progress has been made. Surely, First Minister, you agree with me that this is totally unacceptable. Can you therefore tell us what steps are you going to take to resolve this specific situation?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, as it happens, I don't agree with the Member. I take a very different view to the one, I think, I've heard him say about the need for tier 4 services in child and adolescent mental health. I definitely don't agree that we need more centres. What we need is to minimise the number of young people who end up needing a service of that sort. So, for me, the test of success is not that we have more beds that we need to take young people into, but that we have more community services, more crisis intervention services, and that we are able to move young people down the escalator of intervention.
So, I am very comfortable that we have a centre in north Wales and a centre in south Wales at Tŷ Llidiard. I think it was exactly the right decision to withdraw Welsh patients from the third centre to which the Member refers because that service was not fit-for-purpose and did not meet the needs of young people. The number of young people from Wales who we place outside Wales is falling. It's been fallingover recent years, and I want to see it fall further, because while I'm willing to accept that there will be a small number of children from Wales whose needs are so exceptional and so significant that you have to find a service so specialist that a population of 3 million people cannot support it, I want to see as many young people from Wales looked after closer to their families and closer to their homes. That means bringing back children who are looked after in England to tier 4 services, and it means moving tier 4 services for young people in Wales back into the community and closer to people's homes.
So, I agree it's a really important area, and it's very good to have a chance to discuss it on the floor of the Assembly, but my solution to it is the opposite of the Member's solution—not adding more beds and putting more resource there, it's pulling people, de-escalating, strengthening community services and using those 27 beds only when we're certain that that is essential.

Paul Davies AC: But surely we should be providing services here in Wales for those young people and we should be offering a wide range of services, including beds as well. So, surely, First Minister, you've got to accept that.
Now, further concerns have been raised around patient waiting times with me. A recent Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report found that an average of 57 per cent of patients waited no longer than four weeks. However, the inspectorate states that the majority of patients are waiting between four to 26 weeks for their first appointment. Now, a community health council report, which you're looking to scrap, has warned that young people would only feel that they would be seen if they committed a serious suicide attempt. A further report warned that accident and emergency departments are becoming the default option for cases of overdose and self-harm because of difficulties accessing support from a CAMHS centre or primary care.
Do you think that now is the right time to be scrapping CHCs, which are trusted by patients, and replacing them with national citizen voice bodies that might not feel they can be critical of the Welsh Government or the health boards as they will be appointed by you, funded by you and then won't want to be sacked by you? How will your citizen voice bodies speak up for patients, and especially these young people, at a time when they need it the most?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, CHCs are funded by the Welsh Government. Every criticism that he's just made could be equally levied at them, and, absolutely, those arrangements have not prevented CHCs from speaking up on behalf of patients.
What we are aiming to do is to strengthen the citizen's voice in the Welsh NHS. The body that we are proposing will be entirely independent of Government and it will operate—and this is crucial in relation to the question that the Member asked me in the second of his questions—across the health and social care boundary, which CHCs don't. CHCs only operate within the health service. And the young people that he referred to—and I'm grateful to him for highlighting those issues this afternoon—those young people rely on services that are provided both by the health service and very often through social services departments as well. And the new organisation will be able to speak up for those young people across that whole spectrum in a way that the current system cannot. It is entirely designed to be properly independent, to be able to make whatever points it wants to make, and those proposals, Llywydd, are now here on the floor of the Assembly for Members to scrutinise. There will be a Stage 1 inquiry in front of committee, where witnesses can be called. I look forward to Members being able to explore all aspects of the Bill, including looking at how these proposals strengthen independence, strengthen patient voice, and extend it beyond the boundaries within which it is currently confined. I think we'll do a very good job on behalf of patients and young people too.

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: This weekend,the South Wales Argus ran the headline:
'TRAFFIC is queuing and there are heavy delays on…the M4 around Newport.'
As they tweeted it, I suggested they might want to make it their pinned tweet in future. On this occasion, the AA reported that there were severe delays, with an average speed of 15 mph. The AA then said:
'there has not been an accident…the queues are the result of "usual traffic heading to Brynglas Tunnel".'
First Minister, by breaking your manifesto pledge to build a relief road for the M4, aren't you saying that Wales is closed for business under Labour?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, those people will be very glad, Llywydd, that they don't now have to wait five years and more for a solution to the difficulties that they faced, because my decision is not a decision that is not about addressing the difficulties that exist around the Brynglas tunnel, it is about finding alternative ways of addressing those problems, of addressing them far sooner than an M4 relief road ever would have done. I look forward to meeting Lord Burns tomorrow, who will chair the group that we have now set up to deliver those rapid ideas that will make a difference at the Brynglas tunnel. I think that will do far more for the people to which the Member referred, and I am determined to go on working with local representatives from the Newport area, including the city council, to make sure that we now move ahead, look to the future, find new solutions and address the issues that are there to be addressed.

Mark Reckless AC: That's not what you promised in your manifesto, is it?
The Minister behind you, Lee Waters, says that it's a bit of a cliché to suggest that Wales is closed for business—[Interruption.]
It is not what you put in your manifesto. It said—Labour manifesto—
'We will deliver a relief road for the M4'.

Okay—

Mark Reckless AC: You haven't done it—you've broken your promise.

—I can't hear the question; I don't think the First Minister can. Can you continue with your question in some silence?

Mark Reckless AC: So, what Lee Waters says was a cliché were not my words—it was the Confederation of British Industry Wales director Ian Price who said this cancellation
'sends the message that Wales is not open for business.'
'Economic growth will be stifled, confidence in the region will weaken and the cost of an eventual relief road will rise'.
Now, I don't often quote Welsh Secretary Alan Cairns, but I agree with him that this decision was hugely disappointingand a 'dark day'for Wales.
It was also the Secretary of State that we had to rely on to find anything out about what was going on with the inquiry and the report, finding out, actually, that the decision was a positive one from the inspector some weeks before Welsh Government told us. Now, does the First Minister not recognise that it was you who closed off effective debate about this report when it might actually have made a difference, by keeping it secret for several months while you were making your own decision? And is the UK Government not correct on the fundamental point that, were it not for 20 years of Labour-led devolution, this road would now be built?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I don't know if there is a great deal to be learnt from the Member on manifestos. He stood for the Conservative Party on a manifesto; he abandoned that in an instant. He stood for the UKIP party on a manifesto; he walked away from that. I don't think there are any lessons anybody here is ever likely to take from him on the subject of staying true to things that you stood for in an election.
As far as the CBI is concerned, I was very pleased to meet with the chief executive of the CBI, the Federation of Small Businesses and the Trades Union Congress last week to talk exactly about the decision that has been made, and I want to thank them for the way in which they came to that meeting in an entirely constructive spirit. They came wanting to contribute to the new pool of ideas that are there to address the difficulties that are faced at the Brynglas tunnel. They came to say how keen they were to participate in the group that will now be established to come up with those solutions. I think it's hard to imagine a greater contrast between the constructive spirit in which the CBI and other colleagues came to that table and the carping tone that we have been offered by the Member again this afternoon.
He has no grasp at all of the way in which decisions are made in Government; he has no grasp at all of the proprieties that have to be observed in making those decisions. I am entirely comfortable that, in this case, the decision was properly made, respected the rules within which that decision had to be made, and that the decision that is now made is something that we need to gather round, get on with and make sure that we have solutions that we can put into place far more quickly than a relief road would ever have brought for people in Newport and the difficulties that I've said every time I've been asked I recognise are there and need to be solved.

Question 3 [OAQ54038] is withdrawn. Question 4—Andrew R.T.Davies.

Economic Priorities for South Wales Central

Andrew RT Davies AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's economic priorities for South Wales Central for the remainder of this Assembly term? OAQ54034

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. Our economic priorities for the whole of Wales, including South Wales Central, are set out in the economic action plan. These include investing in people, places and businesses through skills, infrastructure and business support.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Last week, the environment Minister gave a statement, a written statement, around the Welsh Government's change in its commitment to hit zero carbon emissions by 2050. In the penultimate paragraph, it said that the climate change committee report
'makes it clear the scale and pace of change required to meet a net zero target is greater than any other planned economic transition in modern times.'
Could the First Minister confirm that when the Cabinet agreed to this commitment and indeed its declaration on climate change emergency, that detailed economic modelling was made available so that residents in South Wales Central can have confidence that the economic model that the Government is pursuing will not jeopardise jobs and jeopardise prosperity, and, where possible—where possible—those papers will be made available for Members to look over?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm very pleased to confirm that, of course, the Welsh Government's actions in this area are underpinned by detailed advice. We have very few Cabinet sub-committees, but we do have a Cabinet sub-committee on decarbonisation, where a great deal of very detailed work is considered, and which underpins all the decisions that we make. We had, of course, the very detailed 300 pages of advice from the climate change committee itself, and all of that was properly considered by the Cabinet before my colleague Lesley Griffiths made her announcement. It was followed the next day, I think, by the UK Government also accepting the advice of the climate change committee in relation to setting emission targets for the future, and I'm sure that Andrew R.T. Davies's colleagues in Government in London also had access to the underpinning analysis that the committee provides in order to inform their decision too.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, you will be aware that last month the New Zealand Labour Government published its well-being budget, which is described as a world first. It placed social well-being indicators as priorities within their economic policy, instead of a narrow focus on GDP or GVA. With initiatives like the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the economic contract here in Wales, it is clear that this kind of approach resonates with what we're already doing. So, how else can this kind of approach be prioritised within Welsh Government economic policy this Assembly term?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank Vikki Howells for that really interesting question? Of course, we are very interested to learn more about the New Zealand Government's decision. We're lucky we've always had strong links between a Labour Government here and the Labour Government in New Zealand. My colleague, Lesley Griffiths, was in New Zealand not that long ago, looking at other aspects of that Government's work, and we've looked ourselves at the limitations, on the floor of this Assembly, at GVA. We know that, if we're genuinely interested in well-being, then GVA is not a good means of capturing that rounded picture. We know that there are progressive administrations elsewhere looking at well-being economics, and the way in which we intend to pursue that in Wales is through the work that we have commissioned through the OECD—part of our determination that, even in these difficult times, Wales goes on being an outward-looking nation where we learn from others, where we're involved in joint activity with countries in other parts of the world. And the work to which Vikki Howells has referred has come to a fruition in New Zealand maybe sooner than anywhere else, but there is a broader range of countries interested in developing measures that go beyond the narrow range that GVA captures, and we are very much committed, through the well-being of future generations Act and other economic policies of this Government, to being part of that international effort.

Promoting Local History in North Wales

Darren Millar AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on action being taken by the Welsh Government to promote local history in north Wales? OAQ54048

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member. The Welsh Government promotes the history of Wales both nationally and locally. For example, Cadw tells the stories of Wales not only at the sites they manage but also through working with local partners, such as the archaeological trusts.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. You'll be aware that next February will mark the thirtieth anniversary of the devastating Towyn floods, which occurred along the coastline of my own constituency and, indeed, into the neighbouring constituency of the Vale of Clwyd, because they impacted in Rhyl as well. Those floods saw 5,000 people evacuated from the communities that were devastated by that water, and had a significant impact on all of the lives that were affected. Indeed, many of those people who were involved in the rescue efforts also had their lives impacted too. Can I ask whether the Welsh Government will support local efforts to commemorate that flooding event and what work you might be able to do in order to promote awareness about flood risk as part of any programme that is developed?

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Darren Millar for that question? I well remember the Towyn floods and the enormous impact on that local community and, as Darren Millar has said, on all those who were involved around that event as well. I'll certainly look to see how, through the different ways in which we support local events to commemorate matters of real significance in local communities, we can look to see whether we are able to support efforts around the Towyn floods.
Wales has a long history of being interested in commemorating matters. I looked, as I went to Aberystwyth yesterday, Llywydd, at the 'Cofiwch Dryweryn' monument there, restored to its former state, I'm pleased to see. Members here will know that, in the circumstances surrounding that monument, it has been replicated in many communities across Wales. So, here in Wales, we have a long, long association with the impact that flooding of different sorts has on local communities, and I think that the Member makes a very good point about making sure that we think about those issues as part of our local histories.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I would invite the First Minister, the next time he’s in the Ruthin area, to drive past Ysgol Pentrecelyn, which has been painting its own mural in the school with ‘Cofiwch Dryweryn’ on it as part of their work on Welsh history within the school. I agree with the need, of course, to promote more opportunities to learn about Welsh history and indeed local history. But the frustration, very often, is a lack of resources that are contemporary and professional and available on a broad enough range of subjects in the context of Welsh history and local history. So, can I ask what’s the Government’s commitment to ensuring that there are sufficient resources available for all ages to ensure that, when the will is there to provide and share that information, sufficient resources are also in place to support that work?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I agree that it’s important to have the resources. I know that Cadw is doing a great deal of work in creating local resources and using new possibilities to convey that information to people. When I visited Conwy castle recently, I saw many people touring the castle with their phones, and, on the phones, there was a lot of information that Cadw had given them. So, they don’t have to buy leaflets, they can just tour the site and see or hear the information. Lots of such things have been created officially by bodies such as Cadw, but there are many local societies—and I know that there’s one in Ruthin—that do a great deal of work to create resources for visitors and tourists throughout the whole of Wales. I also know that the Minister for Education is doing a lot of work in creating resources in the new curriculum. Looking forward, to be clear, Welsh history will be a core part of the work that will be done in schools, with the resources to support that work.

Public Procurement

Jenny Rathbone AC: 6. What plans does the Welsh Government have to use public procurement to strengthen local businesses? OAQ54039

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Welsh suppliers now win 52 per cent of the annual £6.2 billion-worth of procurement expenditure in Wales, up from 35 per cent in 2004. We aim to increase this further through the procurement action plan for Wales, which includes new supply chain interventions to increase opportunities for Welsh businesses.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, First Minister. Obviously, the declaration of a climate emergency means we have to reduce our carbon emissions in everything we do, and that, of course, includes reducing food miles. When we are aware that the front runner for the Tory party leadership seems determined to take us out of the European Union with or without a deal on appropriately named Halloween day, when we celebrate the dark arts, that will of course hugely disrupt all our food supplies, including raising the prices of any vegetables and fruit that we import. So, I wondered what plans the Welsh Government has to stimulate an increase in horticultural production in Wales, so that we can supply our schools, our hospitals and our residential homes with fresh local produce.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jenny Rathbone for that, Llywydd. I was in Aberystwyth yesterday in the IBERS building to address a meeting of the Farmers Union of Wales. It was a very good place to do that, because of the long and successful history of plant breeding at the institute and the way in which that can support local food production. I heard a lot of both interesting and encouraging ideas that are being developed there as part of any future mid Wales growth deal, to make local food production central to the way in which that deal will be developed using that expertise. When I spoke to the AGM of the FUW they were absolutely seized of the points that Jenny Rathbone has just made, very anxious about the prospects for their industry of leaving the European Union without a deal, fearful of what that will mean for agriculture here in Wales, but interested, definitely, in new possibilities in horticulture. Horticulture is a small but key part of agricultural production here in Wales, and through 'Brexit and our land', which is what I was there to talk to farmers about, I hope that we will, working closely with them, be able to demonstrate that there is a successful future for sustainable farming here in Wales in which sustainable food production and the delivery of public goods go hand in hand, and where new opportunities in horticulture, for exactly the reasons that Jenny Rathbone has outlined, become more available to farming communities in Wales, so that local production of food for local consumption, avoiding food miles, assisting with the impact of Brexit, providing reliable income streams to farmers—all of those things come together in our plan. I was very glad of a chance to explore that with practitioners in the farming world yesterday, and I think that we have a set of ingredients here in Wales that will be successful both in the farming field, but also in the environmental issues to which Jenny Rathbone referred.

Angela Burns AC: Of course, the Welsh Government is a major procurer throughout the whole of Wales, and indeed the organisations that are responsible to the Welsh Government, and so you have a huge amount of influence. You mentioned earlier supply chain interventions; are you able to, or do you, indeed, issue guidance that gives a weighting to organisations so that they can actually give more marks towards, for example, a company that is local, and thereby help to contribute towards a reduction in our climate costs rather than just, say, always going for the cheapest? Because sometimes a slightly more expensive company that's just down the road would be of much greater benefit to the local economy, to the Government and to Wales as a whole.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Angela Burns for those points. Of course, there is guidance issued to procurement services here in Wales. They have to operate within the wider rulebook that the United Kingdom and the European Union operate within, but the purpose of that guidance is to focus the minds of those people who carry out procurement on best value rather than lowest cost in the way that they award contracts. The considerations that Angela Burns has just outlined about impacts in local economies, on employment in those places, in the avoidance of environmental damage through food miles and so on—all of those are legitimate considerations that smart procuring takes into account when it is focused on getting the best value out of public spend, and not just simply the cheapest price.

The Future of the Planning System

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future of the planning system in Wales? OAQ54076

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you, Llyr Gruffydd, for the question. The future of the planning system in Wales will be based on the extensively revised 'Planning Policy Wales' document, published last December. It aligns the planning system directly and systematically with the requirements of the well-being of future generations Act.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I'm sure that you will share my concern, having read the report by the auditor general published recently on planning authorities in Wales, where it highlighted that planning services were given too few resources and were underperforming. It stated in the report that all of the planning services in Wales had seen their budgets halved over the past 10 years, taking into account inflation. Now, there are additional duties on these planning authorities too, as a result of the planning Act. The national development framework will be subject to consultation over the summer and that will lead to strategic development plans, which will then feed into the LDPs at that local level. So, can you tell us whether you share the concerns of the auditor general? If so, what are you doing to ensure that planning authorities have sufficient resources in order to deliver their services effectively?

Mark Drakeford AC: I have a copy of the report with me in the Chamber this afternoon. I’ve had the opportunity to read the report in detail over the weekend. A number of recommendations are contained in the report, and as Government we have time, now, to consider the recommendations and respond to them. The majority of the recommendations aren’t directed towards Welsh Government; they’re recommendations to the local authorities themselves to consider. There are a number of points in the report that demonstrate where local authorities can do things to deal with the financial problems that they face: to actually claw back more of the costs when they do work on behalf of third parties and also—this is vitally important, I think—to work together on a regional basis in the future to create a new service in this field. That is part of the work that Julie James has done, and she will be making a statement to the Assembly on that work during the afternoon. So, there are many lessons in the report, some for us as a Government, and we will consider what we can do with those, but the majority are for the local authorities themselves—things for them to do.

Swansea East and the Climate Change Emergency

Mike Hedges AC: 8. What actions is the Welsh Government taking in Swansea East following the declaration of a climate change emergency? OAQ54030

Mark Drakeford AC: Last week, Welsh Government accepted the UK Committee on Climate Change's advice to bring forward legislation to adopt a 95 per cent carbon reduction target. We will continue to work with stakeholders to explore how we can set a net zero target in the future.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you for that answer. In order to deal with climate change, we need to reduce carbon emissions and, more importantly, increase the number of plants, especially trees, in order to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. When will specific annual targets for Swansea be set?

Mark Drakeford AC: The advice that I have seen does not suggest that targets for carbon emission reduction should be set at a sub-Wales level. Even at an all-Wales level, we are vulnerable to events beyond Wales and emission levels inside Wales are affected by single factors. So, it was very pleasing to see last week figures that show good progress towards our 2020 target, with figures showing a 25 per cent reduction compared to 1990. But, in some ways, last year's figures were affected positively by a hot summer and by the fact that Aberthaw coal-fired power station was working for fewer days than it otherwise would have been. The Swansea East constituency that Mike Hedges represents is a very good example of how emissions right on his border, in steel making, could be counted against a Swansea target if we were to have targets at that very local level. Of course, that doesn't mean, Llywydd, that local authorities shouldn't be taking action. We have Swansea's innovative housing programme, its participation in research efforts to reduce emissions from steel, and the Swansea bay tidal lagoon proposal, which would have done so much in relation to renewable energy and our efforts. Some local authorities do set their own targets for internal monitoring purposes and, should Swansea be interested to do that, there is experience elsewhere on which they could draw.

Finally, question 9, Russell George.

A Community Bank for Wales

Russell George AC: 9. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's proposals for a community bank for Wales? OAQ54058

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we are in dialogue with a number of stakeholders to test the feasibility of establishing a community bank. The work will be led by stakeholders. They will prepare a full market assessment and business plan, and the intention then is to submit an application for the establishment of a community bank for Wales to the Bank of England.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, First Minister. In your manifesto to become First Minister, you set out proposals to support the development of a new Wales-only community bank, with branches open to customers for a face-to-face transaction service, before the end of this Assembly term. Now, the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee has been doing some work in this area and, certainly, the evidence to date has suggested that it is a highly complicated process in terms of regulation to open a bank in the period, perhaps, that you've suggested in your manifesto to become First Minister. They've also talked about the complications of the large amount of public subsidy that would be required to deliver the bank as well. So can I ask you: when do you expect the first community banks to be open, where would you expect them to be located and how much public subsidy will be required to deliver your manifesto pledge?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I am very committed to exploring the potential for a community bank for Wales—a bank that would be ethical, relationship driven, customer owned and that would help us in Wales to tackle some of the detrimental impacts we know there are when a bank branch closes. Lending to small and micro industries in the catchment area of a bank branch goes down by 60 per cent when a branch closes, and we have the phenomenon of people not being able to have a bank account at all and the poverty premium that that involves of an average of £500 a year. So there is something really big to play for here.
Russell George is right, it is complex. There are others who are further down the track than we are—in London and in Avon in the south-west of England. We are in discussions with the Scottish Government about actions that they are taking, too. I look forward to the report of the committee. But the model that has been put to us, developed by the royal society of arts, does not involve large sums of public money as a subsidy. In fact, when I met with representatives of the RSA who have been leading this work, they are at pains to say to me that the last thing they wanted was the Welsh Government to be putting large sums of money into this bank. It's a community bank. It has to be owned by a much wider range of stakeholders if it is to succeed.
So, there's detailed work to be done, and some of the questions I was asked, Llywydd, are premature and cannot be answered today. But, the work is going on. It's going on with a very committed group of people here in Wales, with expert help from outside Wales. And if we can make it happen, then I think it has really exciting possibilities for communities right across Wales.

Thank you, First Minister.

Questions to the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip

The next item is questions for the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, and the first question is from Suzy Davies.

Equality Policies

Suzy Davies AC: 1. Will the Deputy Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's equality policies? OAQ54081

Jane Hutt AC: As I set out in my oral statement last week, equality is a central priority for the Welsh Government. This is reflected, for example, in our gender equality review, the 'Nation of Sanctuary' plan and our framework for action on disability.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that, and I welcome the work that we're starting to see on this now. I hope you'll join with me in welcoming the news that Neath Port Talbot, in my region, is the first local authority to sign up to the FairPlay Employer scheme to tackle the gender pay gap. But we do have other pay gaps as well, including with the BAME community, and Welsh Government was not able to say recently how many BAME people work in the public sector in total in Wales, let alone how many BAME women. Your Government intends to improve representation within Welsh Government by 0.4 per cent by next year. I'm not sure how many actual people that is, but can you tell me how you'll be doing that in a way that not only improves BAME representation within the workforce, but improves the BAME gender pay gap as well? Perhaps you can also say something about how you and the Equality and Human Rights Commission might be collecting data that would help inform policy on that.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Suzy Davies for those questions. In fact, I also welcome the fact that Neath Port Talbot council has achieved the Chwarae Teg fair employment award, and, of course, part of that is about tackling the gender pay gap. In terms of the opportunities that we have to focus, particularly I would say this week, on making sure that we have a diversity in our ministerial public appointments, we are producing a diversity strategy, which will consider action on how we can better raise awareness of public appointments and ensure that the process is as inclusive as possible. That has to be through an implementation plan; how we improve, for example, the diversity of assessment panels, support appointees, have shadowing arrangements. I'm mentoring, and I think probably, Suzy, you're mentoring also, candidates from the Women's Equality Network. We certainly know that this is a way forward towards those kinds of ministerial appointments, which I hope will particularly address black, Asian, minority ethnic candidates, but particularly women who, of course, can play such a key role.
Now, in terms of the gender pay gap, it is a gender pay gap where we have to look at the intersectionality issues in relation to the pay gaps. It is, indeed, not just in terms of a gender pay gap; there's also a disability and a race pay gap as well, which we have to address. It is important that we see that this is a crucial part of the rapid review of Welsh Government gender and equality, and I very much welcome the Chwarae Teg 'State of the Nation 2019' report, where we addressed these issues. And we were at Butetown Community Centre to have a panel discussion on these issues, and the focus was on BAME women in Wales because of the research that they're undertaking on BAME women and their experiences in the Welsh labour market. So, all these are key to my agenda in terms of priorities in supporting and extending equality and human rights.

Leanne Wood AC: Minister, the question you were just asked was specifically about data. You didn't address that point at all, so I'd really be grateful if you would answer that point about the collection of data. There are many types of discrimination within our society. We've got data on all forms of inequality, but there's very little information about the experiences of black, Asian and minority ethnic communities in this country. I was very glad to be able to speak at the new cross-party group on race equality at the beginning of the month, where the overwhelming message to us there was that we still have a long way to go before we achieve equality. We can have a strategy. We can have awareness. We can have as much mentoring as we like, but unless you are collecting data, you are not going to be able to identify and address those problems. So, if you could answer the question about data, Minister: what is this Government doing to fill the information void that we have on the ethnic minorities who have been part of our communities in this country for centuries?

Jane Hutt AC: Data is crucially important, in terms of the way that we measure our outcomes and seek to deliver on our objectives. Just in terms of some data, in terms of public appointments, for example, we are collating and verifying diversity appointments data for 2018-19, but we know from 2017-18 that 6.9 per cent of all ministerial appointments and re-appointments were declared to be from BAME groups, 51.9 per cent female, and 7.6 per cent disabled people. And I'm glad to be able to give that data today. But, clearly, it shows how far we've got to go particularly in terms of BAME groups, and that's why the data is important.
But, also, in terms of data, this is something where we've been working with theOffice for National Statistics on to ensure that we can access data. We don't have all the data that we need in order to be informed, particularly in terms of the objectives that we have to address. And we need that in order to deliver on our public sector equality duty and Welsh-specific duties, which we are now, as I said last week, reassessing to see whether we can strengthen them, and data will be a crucial part of that.So I'm completely on side in terms of data.
And can I also welcome the fact that we now have a cross-party group on race equality? I think John Griffiths is chairing that, with Bethan co-chairing it. It is very important that that is a cross-party group that can hold me to account in terms of recognising that we have a long way to go. But we have an opportunity now, in terms of this focus on equality, to make real strides and to use the issues around the general duty that we have—the public sector duty—and the separate duties on race, disability and gender equality. And I know, at that Butetown meeting, we all talked about the importance of that intersectionality, and that approach, in terms of equality.

The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015

Andrew RT Davies AC: 2. Will the Deputy Minister outline what measures the Welsh Government is undertaking to strengthen the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? OAQ54035

Jane Hutt AC: Our focus is on strengthening the implementation of the Act and supporting our partners to realise the benefits of contributing to the seven well-being goals, and working in a collaborative, integrated and preventative way that looks to the long term and involves people in all their diversity.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. I appreciate that you took a topical question on this particular aspect a few weeks ago. But in relation to the judgment that the judge handed down—Mrs Justice Lambert at the time—she said that the Bill was
'deliberately vague, general and aspirational and which applies to a class rather than individuals.'
The Bill is now some four years old. That judgment has been handed down. Do the Welsh Government have any ideas about how they might beef up the legislation, so that it does become more specific and does apply to individuals, rather than groups? Because, obviously, a lot of Government policy has changed in that four years, especially in the field of the environment. And we've heard today, in First Minister's questions, about the planning system—the future generations Bill is very topical in that particular area. So given the change in circumstances, and the judgment that's been handed down, can you confirm that the Welsh Government is looking to beef up that piece of legislation?

Jane Hutt AC: I think what is important in terms of the Act is that it provides us with opportunities to use the Act to inform policy, and it's very important that 'Planning Policy Wales' and the developments and the review are being informed by the well-being of future generations Act. But we can look at a whole range of issues in terms of the seven goals—a prosperous Wales, a healthier Wales—in ways in which we are, for example, supporting the delivery of 20,000 affordable homes, completing the task of meeting the Welsh housing quality standard, and also looking in terms of a prosperous Wales, a more resilient Wales, at investing over £300,000 in the new forestry apprenticeships pilot in Wales. It's crucial to the climate emergency in terms of our global responsibilities, in terms of our Wales of cohesive communities. It's informing us in terms of policy and ensuring that we are looking to enhance that in terms of our community cohesion co-ordinators. I think the Act provides for enhanced scrutiny of the Welsh Government, through the powers of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales—an independent commissioner for Wales—and examination duty on the Auditor General for Wales.

Community Safety in South-east Wales

Jayne Bryant AC: 3. Will the Deputy Minister make a statement on community safety in south-east Wales? OAQ54085

Jane Hutt AC: The Welsh Government is committed to making our communities safer. We work closely with our four police forces, the UK Government and a raft of other agencies to drive down anti-social behaviour, reduce crime and, importantly, the fear of crime.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister. I recently hosted a screening in the Senedd of Anti Social Bob, a film produced by Newport youth offending service to combat and prevent anti-social behaviour. The project's an excellent example of the benefits of multi-agency partnership working. It received funding from Newport City Council and One Newport, and the youth offending service worked closely with school liaison officers from Gwent Police and the fire service to deliver the films in Newport schools. Whilst it was filmed in Newport, Anti Social Bob aims to tackle the issues around anti-social behaviour that can exist in all parts of the country. Our youth services are absolutely key and face incredible pressures. How can this good practice be shared meaningfully throughout other parts of Wales, and what can Welsh Government do to strengthen and support our youth justice service, in relation to community safety?

Jane Hutt AC: I'd like to thank Jayne Bryant for that question. I'm very grateful that she shared the video, Anti Social Bob, produced by Newport youth offending service, and it's a video that was developed with young people at its heart. It does actually show the real cost of anti-social behaviour, not just to the young person but the wider impacts on family, friends and communities. We know that using media can have such an impact and is a powerful way of educating. It also helps to divert young people from those behaviours, which can easily lead to criminalisation and long-term impacts of such behaviour. I know that youth offending teams across Wales meet regularly and they will be looking at this as an example of good practice. But what is key, I think, in terms of protecting our youth services, and that obviously is something where we're supporting our local authorities closely, but also in terms of youth justice, we have seen the achievement of the lowest numbers of young people from Wales in custody, and work is under way to improve this even further with the blueprint for youth justice that I published on 21 May.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Deputy Minister, over the last three years, more than 32,000 schoolchildren in south Wales have benefited from vital rail safety education. Network Rail, in participation with the Crucial Crew safety initiative, have been delivering rail safety sessions to children in areas including Caerphilly, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport. Minister, will you join me in congratulating Network Rail and Crucial Crew on their work and commitment to delivering vital rail safety information to young people in south-east Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: I certainly would want to join the Member in congratulating Network Rail and for developing such an innovative rail safety awareness and education programme, which engages young people and is crucial in terms of rail safety, and also gives them the opportunity to take responsibility in terms of their own safety and their peers' and their communities' safety.

Mark Reckless AC: One leader who's worked tirelessly to promote community safety in south-east Wales is Julian Williams. He's retiring this month as chief constable of Gwent Police. I'd like to associate myself with the remarks of police and crime commissioner, Jeff Cuthbert. He said he's
'been a very effective leader of Gwent Police and has displayed professionalism, tempered with compassion, at all times.'
And I know he had a distinguished record at South Wales Police before that. I just wonder if the Minister would also like to put on record her appreciation and that of the Government.

Jane Hutt AC: I would certainly want to join you in recognising the achievements of the chief constable of Gwent Police, and, in fact, he is going to be a great loss. Jeff Cuthbert and the chief constable have worked so closely together and have made such an impact as a result of that close working. I'm sure other Members here, in fact, would like to join me, as Minister, and indeed members of the Welsh Government and the First Minister in recognising his achievements.

The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015

Nick Ramsay AC: 4. How is the Welsh Government ensuring its compliance with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? OAQ54044

Jane Hutt AC: The Welsh Government has robust arrangements in place to ensure we are fulfilling the requirements of the well-being of future generations Act. We continue to collaborate with the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales and our partners to realise the benefits of the Act for Wales.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Minister. And I don't think you could be criticised for not listening to the future generations commissioner when it came to the M4 decision recently. I'm sure she was pleased that her thoughts were taken on board. I'll leave aside my usual favourite subject of asking about roads, and, if I can, ask you about the monitoring or the enactment of the well-being of future generations legislation when it comes to local government and planning. I'm aware of at least one rural planning application in my constituency that has been called in by the Welsh Government because it breaches, or potentially breaches, the issue of sustainable travel, with an over-reliance on cars in the countryside being a problem at the heart of that application. It seems to me that, whilst we talk the talk here about sustainability and ensuring that future generations are protected, perhaps that message hasn't always permeated out to local authorities or, indeed, to other agencies, which are then responsible for delivering on the ground. So, I wonder if you could tell us how you're liaising with the Minister for planning and local government to make sure that out there, outside the walls of this Chamber, this legislation really is at the heart of everything that local authorities do, because, along with the climate emergency, these are all fine words, but unless they're actually enacted out there on the ground, then we're talking words but good things aren't actually happening in process.

Jane Hutt AC: I think there's a recognition, even through the topical question to me earlier on this month from Andrew R.T. Davies and from discussions we've had in questions to the First Minister, how important the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is to us, and how important it is that it is now adopted by the public sector, who are responsible for delivering on those seven goals and the five ways of working. It is helping to drive a renewed focus on how the Welsh Government improves how it engages, involving the diversity of the population of Wales, and I think the example of 'Planning Policy Wales' and the national development framework is a really good example of that. It does take strong leadership from us all to move to the Wales we want and, of course, including the commissioner, we have to work with our partners and particularly those who are local authorities, but those who are making those decisions, particularly around planning, to realise the benefits of this Act. But it is a fundamental part of the policy framework.
And, indeed, we do provide a package of national support for regional funding and regular drop-in sessions to help public services boards implement the Act. We have a cross-Government group of senior officials to look at ways we can accelerate the implementation of the Act, informed by our work with the third sector. I think it's very welcome that this Assembly has embraced the well-being of future generations Act by recommending that the Welsh Government uses the integrated impact assessment tool to assess the impact of all new policy on equality, children's rights, the Welsh language, rural-proofing and biodiversity. So, it is embedded now in the way that we work, and it is embedded in those who are responsible, our public bodies, to deliver on it, particularly in relation to sustainable development.

Women's Wages in Anglesey

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 5. What assessment has the Deputy Minister made of women's wages in Anglesey? OAQ54073

Jane Hutt AC: Tackling the causes of the gender pay gap and is a priority in the gender review. Actions to remove barriers include providing childcare support, creating training opportunities, tackling discrimination and supporting women into non-traditional careers.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. The most recent Chwarae Teg report on the state of the nation demonstrates that Anglesey has the greatest gap between the salaries of men and women. The gap in Anglesey is 25.5 per cent, which is staggeringly high, particularly given that this is to be a priority, as you’ve just said, for the Government. I’ll be chairing a special meeting in Anglesey in September in collaboration with Chwarae Teg, looking at this very issue. But what exactly is the Welsh Government doing in areas where this is clearly an ongoing problem? Doesn’t that figure just demonstrate that this Government has failed in its efforts to date to tackle the issue in areas where the problem is at its gravest?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank the Member for the question. Between 2011 and 2018, the gender pay gap in Wales decreased from 9.2 per cent to 7.3 per cent. The UK gender pay gap was 9 per cent in 2018. Clearly, we've got to drive that down and address those areas, like Anglesey, where there is that greatest gap. In fact, I think the recommendations from the Fair Work Commission on tackling the gender pay gap is very relevant, and I hope you'll be able to refer to that in your meeting. It looked at the gender pay gap across all local authorities in Wales, including Anglesey, and it made recommendations about helping to close this gap.
I would say, in terms of opportunities that we're taking, we've got the personal learning account pilot that's part of the employability plan launched in September, with a pilot area in north Wales, including Anglesey, providing occupational courses and improved qualifications linked to key sectors. It will be available to women from the isle of Anglesey and across Wales. But, during 2017-18, 400 women living on the isle of Anglesey started an apprenticeship programme, as opposed to 290 men. More women are coming forward and also taking advantage of the parents, childcare and employment adviser in terms of access to childcare and support. Over 1,500 parents have started work since the programme started in July 2015, and that includes 124 parents from Anglesey. So, I hope that I will be able to advise you and also work with you to ensure that our road map for gender equality does address and support those areas where there are particular unacceptable gaps in relation to the gender pay gap, but also looks at how we can support women in terms of their achievements.
I will just finally say that I think Chwarae Teg obviously will be talking about their Agile Nation project, and that's been supported over the years, helping women and employers to gain qualifications and to progress in the labour market in employment and tackle occupational segregation.

Coercive Control

Delyth Jewell AC: 6. Will the Deputy Minister make a statement on the training available to recognise and tackle coercive control? OAQ54086

Jane Hutt AC: We continue to support the public sector workforce to be able to identify coercive control through our national training framework. I also launched the ‘This is Not Love. This is Control’ campaign in January, which focuses on raising awareness of coercive control, domestic abuse and sexual violence.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for your answer. I was very involved in work that resulted in the introduction of the coercive control law when I was in Westminster so this is an area very close to my heart, but legislation is only as good as its implementation, and there remain concerns about the take-up of training in this area. Until all public services receive training of the highest standard, we are unlikely to see a change in attitudes towards this pernicious crime. Now, whilst I appreciate that some of the picture, including policing, will be a reserved matter for Westminster, can I ask what steps Welsh Government are taking to ensure that all relevant public service providers are receiving training in not just the realities of coercive control but the need to signpost survivors to help? Until all survivors get that, we're going to see a system where some people are going to be punished by a system where some providers realise what the horrors are that they're going through whilst others don't.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I thank Delyth Jewell for this really important question, particularly given the fact that we have that recent case, the Sally Challen case, bringing this insidious topic of coercive control to the forefront of national news.
I think, as you say, training is key. It's part of our national strategy. Through the national training framework, we have trained over 142,000 professionals in the public sector workforce in Wales, and it is at different levels. We've got over 3,000 professionals being trained in our early intervention and prevention training, 'Ask and Act', where identifying coercive control is a key aspect, but the national training framework has six different groups to ensure that we reach out to those who are nearest to women particularly who are at risk, catching the widest audience in terms of group 1, raising awareness of the violence against women and domestic abuse legislation, and moving to those professionals with frequent contact with potential victims to those whose specialism is tackling violence against women, and also to leaders as well. We are currently planning regional workshops for public sector leaders—those with commissioning and planning responsibilities—and we also have a strength in leadership series of films, which has been viewed over 7,800 times. So, training-the-trainer training has been completed by 20 professionals in mid and West Wales.
I appreciate that this is about reaching out to the professionals who are at the forefront and the sharp end of being able to address this issue, and I'm very glad that you brought this to our attention to show what is being done in terms of the national strategy delivering on our pioneering legislation.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make the statement—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. The motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Legislation (Wales) Bill has been withdrawn. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Trefnydd. I wonder if I could ask for two items, please, the first being a letter to all Assembly Members, perhaps from you, actually, but I'm not 100 per cent sure who, about why the consultation document—this document—on amending the Government of Wales Act 2006 (Budget Motions and Designated Bodies) Order 2018—I know it doesn't sound very exciting—isn't on the Government website for wider consultation. It's a draft Order that seeks to bring new bodies within the scope of Welsh Government's financial reporting processes, and at least one of the bodies listed here in the draft Order was not informed about this even happening and so didn't know that there was a consultation going on, and one doesn't come within the definition of 'central Government sector', and this only applied to central Government sector bodies. The reason I'm asking you to, perhaps, issue a letter on this is this matter is due to come before the Finance Committee, if it hasn't already.
And if I could also just raise this with you: in March, the Brexit Secretary told us that a significant piece of work was necessary in relation to the qualifications make-up of the public sector workforce across Wales post Brexit. I'd raised a question in the context of teachers' qualifications and the current distinction between EU citizens and non-EU citizens, which is something that could disappear once we leave the EU. Now that it's clear that the main party in this place would campaign for 'remain' should there be a second referendum, I think we could do with some reassurance that this work on what's going to happen to qualifications post Brexit is continuing. Perhaps we could just have a written statement to that effect—not just on education, but the public sector generally. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, thank you very much. On the first issue of the consultation document, I'll certainly find out what's going on there and update Members, as you've requested, in terms of the availability of that consultation document and the circulation of it.FootnoteLink
On the second issue, we've been very clear that Welsh Government does see Britain and Wales's best interests best served by remaining in the European Union, and the First Minister has set out why he feels that is the case now, having set out for a number of years the best possible Brexit that Wales could have achieved in terms of causing the least damage. There just doesn't seem any prospect now of the UK Government taking that forward. So, the response now, really, is to make the case to remain within the EU. That said, that does not mean for a second that we are taking our foot off the gas in terms of the preparations that we are doing to prepare Wales should there be a 'no deal' Brexit, and that's one of the reasons, today, I've announced as part of the first supplementary budget, a capital stimulus programme of £85 million, which will be allowing the construction industry particularly to gain some confidence, but also the supply chains that rely on it. So, work is going on both in terms of promoting the case for a second referendum but also in terms of preparing ourselves for any possible Brexit, but particularly a 'no deal' Brexit. And the example you gave in terms of qualifications, I'll be sure that you have an update on that.

Information further to Plenary

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Trefnydd, as Plaid Cymru’s spokesperson on local government, I am very aware of the financial pressures on the budgets of local authorities. Indeed, that’s why I put pressure on the Welsh Government to provide more money to our county councils some months ago. However, recently in Neath Port Talbot, proposals have been introduced to increase payment for post-16 transport very substantially, from £100 a year to £390 per year. Now, clearly, this will have a significant impact on families across the county, but it will have a particular impact on the only Welsh-medium school in the county, which is Ysgol Gyfun Ystalyfera Bro Dur, and the only faith school in the county, which is St Joseph’s Catholic School. With pupils traditionally travelling to these schools from all corners of the county, these families will be hit harder than the majority. I, along with my fellow regional Member Bethan Sayed, have already received comments from families who send their children to Welsh-medium education and the concerns that they have, and we are committed to supporting their case.
Now, we know that the Welsh Government has a target of creating a million Welsh speakers, and in order to achieve that target, the Welsh Government and local authorities will need to make Welsh-medium education accessible across Wales. This proposal from Neath Port Talbot council does quite the opposite. In deciding on a child’s education, parents will surely be influenced by the cost attached with that education, and there is a real risk that parents will choose to send their children to the closest provision, which will be English medium, rather than sending pupils to ysgol Ystalyfera. Therefore, will the Welsh Government make a statement on what it intends to do to ensure that Welsh-medium education is not disadvantaged in this way, and will you consider introducing national legislation on the issue of transport in order to ensure fair play for the Welsh language? [Interruption.]

You're to answer, Trefnydd.

Rebecca Evans AC: So, as the Member quite rightly points out, Welsh in education strategic plans are central to the growth in Welsh-medium education and is one of the key factors in terms of helping us achieve our ambition of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. As part of those WESP requirements, local authorities must have a statement on the availability of Welsh-medium provision in relation to home-to-school transport in order to promote access to education and training through the medium of Welsh.
In the case of Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Ystalyfera in Neath Port Talbot, there is no equivalent access to Welsh-medium education as compared to English-medium education, as we've heard. And such issues relating to travelling distance for the individuals who wish to continue with their post-16 education through the medium of Welsh does place them at a disadvantage. So, we would certainly be concerned about the negative impact that the introduction of the proposed changes might have on the number of students following post-16 courses through the medium of Welsh, and we have sought reassurances from the local authority that all possible options are being considered to remove those financial barriers to ensure that Welsh-medium education is supported within the whole county.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The Minister will note the vote last week by 83 per cent of the Ford workforce to support industrial action up to and including strike action in response to the Ford closure proposal. So, I wonder whether time can be found for a statement on Ford Bridgend in the near future, and at least before the summer recess, which would allow the Minister to update us on progress with the taskforce, and in particular in reference to the representations made to ensure that in the event of closure, the pensions and the redundancies are at least equal to those offered to Ford workers before, in the UK or in any plant in Europe, and that any legacy left by Ford in the event of closure should be equal to any they've given to other EU plants that have closed as well.
We're only asking for fair play to workers who've given 40 years commitment to this plant. I welcome what the First Minister has said, I welcome what the economy Minister has said, standing squarely, shoulder to shoulder, with these workers, but it would be good to get an update in the right, timely manner before we get to the summer.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for raising this issue and the concern that he's been steadfastly expressing for his constituents who are employed at the Ford plant at Bridgend and constituents even beyond his own area. I know that the economy Minister is very keen to keep all Members up to date on progress, but I would say today that we've begun the process of establishing that taskforce to work with partners, over the difficult weeks and months ahead, to help to find a sustainable, long-term solution for the plant and its workforce. We are acting quickly to progress this and have approached a prominent figure, as you know, from the automotive industry, to chair the taskforce.
As part of the taskforce being established, the people's work stream, in conjunction with Ford, will consider the provision of appropriate financial advice for the workforce. The First Minister has spoken to the Prime Minister about the situation and the need for the two Governments to work together seamlessly for the people of Bridgend and the wider region. This was a message I was able to reiterate in a meeting that I was at of the Cabinet sub-committee with the UK Government just last week.
The First Minister has also spoken with senior management at Ford who've committed to working with us on the taskforce to support their employees and the supply chain, and also to provide a legacy for the wider community. But I'll be certain to ensure that the economy Minister, in his updates, does address that legacy issue that you have particular concern about, and also the issue of pensions and the issue of parity with the agreements that have been made in similar situations elsewhere.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, please could we have a statement from the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism on the outcome of the Wales tourism summit in Llandrindod Wells in March? The current 'Partnership for Growth' strategy for tourism expires next year, and I understand that the Deputy Minister has been consulting with the tourism sector following the summit. Given the importance of tourism to the Welsh economy, please could we have a statement on how the Welsh Government intends to support and increase tourism in Wales in future? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for your question. The statement on Welsh Government support for tourism—you'll be aware, of course, of the additional £2 million that was invested in the industry to make sure that Wales does have an excellent tourism offer. I know that the Minister for international relations intends to make a statement on the international strategyon 9 July, and I'm certain that there'll be opportunities there to discuss how we can ensure that we have the best possible international tourism offer to attract people from across the globe to what we have to offer here in Wales. But on the specifics of your question, I will ask the Deputy Minister to write to you.

Leanne Wood AC: I'm compelled to raise yet again the centralisation agenda of this Government, which has had such an adverse impact upon the Royal Glamorgan Hospital in Llantrisant. I regularly receive concerns and complaints from both patients and staff. The decision to remove consultants from the Royal Glamorgan, relocating them to Merthyr, has not had a positive impact. The removal of paediatric consultants from the Royal Glamorgan has been halted for now, and I would like to see a decision be taken to halt that on a permanent basis. I'm now hearing deep concerns about consultants being removed from the accident and emergency department at the Royal Glamorgan, sparking genuine fears that, in the medium to long term, the A&E may close, and I share those concerns. I'd therefore like a statement from the Government about the progress of the centralisation agenda, allied with a careful analysis of patient outcomes and staff satisfaction, alongside a commitment to a moratorium on any future centralisation if that exercise shows the dissatisfaction that I believe that it will show. And I'd like a further statement on the future of the accident and emergency department at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital that includes some solid guarantees about its future.

Rebecca Evans AC: May I ask you in the first instance to write to the health Minister outlining the concerns that you have raised? I'm sure that he'll be pleased to address them with the health board. The Minister will be bringing forward a statement on the task and finish group on critical care's report on 2 July, and I think that would be an appropriate opportunity, as well, to have these discussions on the floor of the Assembly.

Joyce Watson AC: Minister, the previous business items included two questions about the well-being of future generation Act, and there is clearly keen political and public interest in that legislation. So, could I request further time to discuss the Act, particularly how local authorities are interpreting the law in respect of public land? You may be aware that there's an ongoing campaign in Solva for public acquisition of Trecadwgan Farm, and the plan is for local residents to develop the site, which dates back to the fourteenth century, and to run it as a community farm. Despite this, Pembrokeshire council has so far refused to cancel next month's auction and give campaigners time to put together a robust business plan. Instead of helping the community, they're asking for an upfront non-refundable £50,000 deposit. In my view, Pembrokeshire's priorities seem to be making a fast buck, not the development of a historic site for the benefit of future generations. I think it's the case that they should be reminded of their legal obligation and given clear lessons and guidance to that end.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Joyce Watson for raising this issue. Public land and, particularly, the disposal of public land is something that I've taken a particular interest in and have had some good discussions or early discussions with my colleague the Minister for economy and also the Minister with responsibility for local government. We're at very early days in these discussions, but I'd be keen to explore further the example that you've given as a potential case study, really, in terms of how we can ensure that when we do dispose of public land, we are doing so in a way that is very much cognisant of our wider Government priorities, the well-being of future generations Act and our aspirations in terms of getting the best value, not just in terms of the bottom line, but, actually, the added value that we can have, in the way that the First Minister described in his response to Angela Burns's question today on procurement.

Mark Isherwood AC: Can I call for two statements? Firstly, an update from the Minister for transport and economy on the north Wales metro. The Welsh Government announced details of what was initially called the north-east Wales metro project in 2017 to improve public transport in north Wales. Today, the local The Leadernewspaper has published commentsmade by the new Labour leader of Flintshire County Council, Ian Roberts, following comments he made during a meeting in County Hall, in which he says there had only been limited discussions about how the main parts of the project would be implemented, that
'Transport and the North Wales Metro is unfinished business with the Welsh Government'
and that he thinks
'it is of particular interest to really ask the Welsh Government what their intentions are for the North East Wales Metro.'
Clearly, if those calls are not only coming more broadly but specifically from a Flintshire council leader who happens to be a member of your party, I hope you'll agree that that merits a public response.
Secondly and finally, could I call for a statement on alcohol misuse by older people in Wales? Two weeks ago, I sponsored and spoke at the launch event for the Drink Wise Age Well programme's 'Calling time for change' charter, held in the Assembly's Pierhead building. This is looking to reduce the harms caused by alcohol in older adults across Wales, working with members of the charter advocacy group, all of whom are volunteers with lived experience of alcohol. After first getting together as an advocacy group, the charter is the culmination of 12 months of their hard work. An important ethos of the programme is that people should not merely be passive recipients of support but active participants in their own and others' well-being and recovery. Worryingly, the report said that in addressing ageism and age discrimination in alcohol policy, practice and research, they found that more than 4 million Britons over 50 think they should cut back on the amount of alcohol they drink, and that in Wales, those aged 65 and over are the only age group where drinking above the daily guidelines is increasing. Again, I call for a statement from the health Minister accordingly. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising both of those issues. With regard to the first, which was the north-east Wales metro, it is certainly a vital part of our plan to improve and modernise transport in the region, and work on delivering the metro vision is progressing well. A Transport for Wales business unit in north Wales has been established to support the delivery of the metro project, including the development of a new Deeside parkway railway station, an integrated Shotton railway station, and an integrated transport hub at Wrexham General rail station. That work is continuing.
Increasing weekday service frequency on the Wrexham-Bidston line to two trains per hour from the end of 2021 is an important aspect of delivering the north-east Wales metro, and we've provided funding to Flintshire County Council for schemes to improve access to and within the Deeside industrial park, with a focus on bus and active travel, and to Wrexham County Borough Council for improvements to Wrexham bus station. We're also progressing plans for the Flintshire corridor red route, which has been supported by the local authority and will be integral to the delivery of the metro. Our proposals for the north-east Wales metro will help the region be better connected and provide access to jobs, facilities and services, which will be a boost for commuters, businesses and the economy, and will also support our ambitions for a north Wales and cross-border area that is competitive and a key component of the Northern Powerhouse.
I think it should be recognised that implementing improvements, in many cases, does require the need to go through the statutory process, and we recognise that some of those interventions will not be quick, but we will begin the roll-out of our vision for the integrated metro system by focusing on those things that could be delivered quickly. If the new leader has particular concerns, I'm sure that he'll take the opportunity to raise them directly with the Minister for transport.
Your point about the Drink Wise Age Well campaign and alcohol misuse amongst older people is very well made, and I know that it's something that the health Minister is keen to address through the substance misuse delivery plan, but I will ask him to provide you with the latest update on that.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Bethan Sayed AC: I wanted to ask for a statement on the Augar report that was published in England on how they’re to pay fees and how they’re going to pay for the post-16 education system there. They certainly have recommended a reduction in the fees for students, and I want to understand from the Welsh Government how that will impact you. So, could we have a statement to that end? We know that the Welsh Government will be responding as part of the UK Government's response, but I would like to have a discussion here in this Parliament before the education Minister makes any sort of decision.

Bethan Sayed AC: My second statement is—. I know that we have had this debate here numerous times about a Welsh cricket team, and many of us here do want that still, but we know that there will be disagreement across the board. Many of us have noticed, with some of the games happening in Wales, the pitiful branding, actually, that Wales gets as part of this Cricket World Cup, and I'm wondering what analysis you will be doing as part of brand Wales, post the Cricket World Cup. You would hardly realise that it was happening, for one, and you'd hardly realise that Wales was part of this alleged England-and-Wales cricket team. So, can we have a statement from the Welsh Government as to how they are creating brand Wales as part of this Cricket World Cup, how they will have lessons to learn for the future, and whether they are minded to change their mind on supporting a Welsh cricket team?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising those issues. With regard to the Augar review, obviously, at the moment, we are exploring that particular report and formulating our own response, and understanding, really, what it would mean for us in a Welsh context. I would encourage you and any other Members with an interest to make representations to the education Minister to assist in formulating the response and formulating our ideas as to how we would react.
Your point about cricket and branding I think is again very well made, in the sense that we need to be making sure that, when we do host events here in Wales—and we do have an incredible variety of events that we host here in Wales and an incredible reputation, I think, for hosting events well, particularly sporting events—then we do need to be making the most of those marketing opportunities. I will ask the Minister to give the matter some consideration and then to respond to you.

Nick Ramsay AC: Trefnydd, can I first concur with the earlier comments made by my colleague Suzy Davies as regards the document amending the Government of Wales Act 2006 not being available on the Welsh Government website? As a Member of the Finance Committee, I have access to it, but I think it is helpful if it's available to a wider audience.
Secondly, last week, we had the important debate on plastics and how we might seek to minimise our reliance on plastics. I know that the Welsh Government did respond to that debate, but I wonder if we could have, well, a strategy and maybe regular or semi-regular updates on what Welsh Government is doing to try and tackle this problem. I think if we all do try to take the issue head on then perhaps we can get somewhere over the medium term. Could we have a statement on how any strategy would incorporate the local dimension? I think that there's a lot of good work and a lot of good practice going on out there on a local level that we don't always hear about.I heard last week about an initiative from Raglan Dairy in my constituency, which is a local milk supplier that is seeking to get—or has actually got—the contract with a lot of primary schools in Monmouthshire to replace plastic bottles with conventional bottles. They've made a huge difference over just a year. I think that there are probably other examples, other companies, doing similar out there, and we could have a bottom-up approach, whereby we really do take that good practice and extend it across Wales.
Finally, Llywydd, I'm sure you want to join me in congratulating Usk school ski team, managed by local councillor Sara Jones, who have won silver and bronze medals in a recent competition—that's for girls and boys, respectively—and are very pleased and let me know about their success. I'm sure the Assembly would also like to congratulate them too.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much, Nick Ramsay. On the first issue, as I said to Suzy Davies, I'll certainly explore the issues regarding the publication of the consultation document and make sure that those people who will have an interest and would like and need to respond to it do have the opportunity to do so.
On the second issue of plastic waste and innovative ways to reduce the amount of plastic that we use, particularly single-use plastic, I know that the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government, with responsibility for waste, has taken a particularly strong interest in this. She does intend to make a statement to the Assembly, but I don't think that we can accommodate it until next term, which is why I know that she's planning on issuing a written statement very shortly, given the high level of interest that there is, quite rightly, in this issue.
We're currently undertaking joint consultations with the UK Government on both the possibility of introducing a deposit-return scheme and extending producer responsibility.That closed last month, so, as part of that, I know the Deputy Minister did host a briefing session for Assembly Members and a stakeholder round-table, which did give the opportunity to bring together some of those more local ideas of things that we should be celebrating in Wales, but also scaling up so that they don't become small things that we think are worthy of celebration, but actually things that are mainstreamed in the way that we do things. But, as I say, the Deputy Minister does intend to issue a written statement very shortly to update Members as to where we are on the issue of plastic, and of course I'm very happy on behalf of the Welsh Government to extend my congratulations to Usk school's ski team on the successes that they've had and the medals that they've won.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Constituents have been in touch with me and they’re concerned about the destructive impact of possible cuts at the school of education at Bangor University and particularly the implications of losing experienced Welsh speaking staff and replacing them with an ad hoc strategy that intends to bring in teachers from schools in order to train and mentor students. I would be grateful for a statement on this issue, and, particularly, I’d like to know what the Government’s view is on the impact of disinvesting in training for teachers and in Welsh-medium education, the impact of that on the sustainability and the success of your education strategy and your Welsh language strategy—that is, would actually scrapping posts in the school of education undermine your target of recruiting more teachers and undermine the target of a million Welsh speakers?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank you for raising this issue. May I ask that you write directly to the Minister for Education and she'll provide a response?

Jayne Bryant AC: In the last few days, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe has started a hunger strike in an Iranian prison. She had a sham trial and has been subject to all sorts of torments since being arrested in 2016. Her husband Richard has started a parallel hunger strike outside the Iranian embassy in London and Richard's sister, Rebecca Jones, lives in my constituency and has been campaigning locally. Could we have a statement on what Welsh Government can do to add our voice and send a message of support to both Nazanin and Richard at this most heartbreaking of times?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising this. It's not something that I am familiar with, but it certainly sounds like a deeply stressful and worrying time for the family concerned. I'll ask the Minister with responsibility for international relations to explore this with you further.

Darren Millar AC: Can I call for a statement from the Minister responsible for the economy and transport on road signage in Wales? You may have seen some reports in the media yesterday that new hedgehog signs are to be introduced for use in the UK because of the hazards that can often be presented by small wildlife in the roads. Now, many of us in this Chamber are species champions, and of course we need to protect wildlife and motorists from the hazards that roads can cause. We know, for example, that squirrels are often casualties on the roads, and of course the red squirrel population on Anglesey and around the Clocaenog forest in my constituency is particularly precious to me as the local species champion. Given that there have been over 100 deaths in 2017, according to the Department for Transport, as a result of small wildlife in our roads, and over 14,000 casualties as a result of animals on highways, will the Welsh Government consider using these sorts of signs in appropriate places in order to protect local wildlife and motorists from those sorts of hazards?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Darren Millar for raising this, and I'll certainly explore precisely that with the Minister for transport.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'd like to ask the Trefnydd for two statements. Firstly, following up on your response to Joyce Watson with regard to the situation of the community in Solfa's attempted purchase of Trecadwgan farm, I'm very interested in the points that Joyce made about the well-being of future generations Act; I think those were very well made. I wonder if it would be possible, in the context of the efforts that that community are making, for the Government to bring forward a statement, perhaps a written statement, about the support that's available from the Welsh Government to enable communities to build resilience and protect community assets? This might be possibly by the Deputy Minister for the Economy under his social enterprise and social economy responsibilities. I think it would be helpful to those residents, but I think it's a case study, and it would be helpful to other residents who may befacing similar situations elsewhere to know what sort of support may be available to them, whether that would be through direct grants or in any other way.
The second statement I'd like to ask for is I'd like to request the Welsh Government stand ready to make a statement once the legal case currently being taken through the High Court by the 1950s women, the Women Against State Pension Inequality campaign and others—if the Government can stand ready when that decision is made to make a statement about how that will impact on Wales. I appreciate that this is a reserved matter, and I'm sure that the Trefnydd, like me, was very disappointed with the UK Government's letter of response that was shared by the Welsh Government recently.
On these benches, we still believe that Welsh Government should give consideration, particularly if there is further legal action, as to whether they could have some locus in the proceedings, because of the huge loss to the Welsh economy, not only to those individual women but the huge loss to the Welsh economy, of the very unjust decisions that have been made around the raising of the pension age.
So, I'd ask the Trefnydd to ask whichever Minister—whether it would be the Deputy Minister with responsibility for equalities or whether it would be the Counsel General—to keep an eye out for that legal response, for the decision, and to be ready perhaps to make a statement about what further we could do to support the women, depending on, of course, the nature of the outcome of the case.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Helen Mary Jones for raising both of those issues. On the first, I will make sure that the Minister with responsibility for the economy is aware of the request for a statement in terms of what can be done to support the public and community groups in terms of the protection of community assets and the use of community assets in a way that is very much in keeping with the well-being of future generations Act and our wider Welsh Government priorities in terms of ensuring that we have the circular economy, that we have a foundational economy, and that we're able to invest in a way that best benefits all of the people in our communities locally.FootnoteLink
On the second issue of the WASPI campaign, I know that we have as an Assembly sent a really strong and I think united message to the UK Government in terms of our despair, really, at the incredibly poor way that the WASPI women and other women identified in different groups—the 1950s, 1960s women, who have found themselves on the receiving end of this policy, which is going to have a big impact on them, because they've had no chance to plan for the kind of future that they now find themselves facing.
The impact on Wales, as you say, is something that Welsh Government is particularly keeping in mind in terms of the impact on the economy, but also the impact on health and social care for women who find themselves more in need of support and assistance. Obviously, I can give you our assurance that we are watching the case very closely and I know that the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip is very keen to update Members as soon as we have anything more.

Information further to Plenary

Thank you, Trefnydd.

Motions to Elect Members to Committees

The next item, therefore, is motions to elect Members to committees, and, in accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and voting. Therefore, I call on a member of the Business Committee to more the motions formally—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7079 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Jack Sargeant (Labour) as a Member of the Petitions Committee in place of Mike Hedges (Labour).
Motion NDM7080 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Carwyn Jones (Labour) as a Member of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee in place of Jayne Bryant (Labour).
Motion NDM7081 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects John Griffiths (Labour) as a Member of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee in place of Vikki Howells (Labour).
Motion NDM7082 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Dawn Bowden (Labour) as a Member of theEquality, Local Government and Communities Committee in place of Carwyn Jones (Labour).
Motion NDM7083 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Mohammad Asghar (Welsh Conservatives) as a Member of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee.

Motions moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, formally.

The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? The motions are therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motions agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motions to Elect Members to Committees

The next item also relates to motions to elect Members to committees, and I also propose that these motions are grouped for debate and voting. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motions—again, Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7084 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Joyce Watson (Labour) as a Member of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee.
Motion NDM7085 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Jack Sargeant (Labour) as a Member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee.
Motion NDM7086 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes John Griffiths (Labour) as a Member of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee.
Motion NDM7087 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Rhianon Passmore (Labour) as a Member of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee.
Motion NDM7088 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Jack Sargeant (Labour) as a Member of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee.
Motion NDM7089 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Jenny Rathbone (Labour) as a Member of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee.
Motion NDM7090 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Dawn Bowden (Labour) as a Member of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee.
Motion NDM7091 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Mohammad Asghar (Welsh Conservatives) as a Member of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee.
Motion NDM7092 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, removes Dai Lloyd (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee.
Motion NDM7093 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Michelle Brown (Independent) as a Member of the Petitions Committee.
Motion NDM7094 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Neil Hamilton (United Kingdom Independence Party) as a Member of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee.
Motion NDM7095 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Gareth Bennett (United Kingdom Independence Party) as a Member of the Public Accounts Committee.

Motions moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, formally.

The proposal is to agree these motions. Does any Member object? No, the motions are therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motions agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

3. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: The Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill

Which brings us to the next statement, a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill. I call on the health Minister to make the statement—Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Yesterday, I laid the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill, together with the explanatory memorandum, before the National Assembly for Wales. I am pleased to have this opportunity to make a statement about the Bill. The promotion of quality has long been a central and integral part of the NHS Wales. This was recognised in the report published in 2016 by the highly respected Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development—otherwise known, of course, as the OECD. The provisions in this Bill build on the arrangements already in place to ensure a quality-driven national health service. This is currently underpinned by the existing duty of quality in the 2003 health and social care Act. But we cannot stand still. There is always scope to learn and do more to deliver continuous improvement.

Suzy Davies took the Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: The parliamentary review of health and social care in Wales highlighted the need to continually improve the experience and quality of care, to ensure we have a health and social care system that is always learning and where the voice of the citizen is central and clearly heard. I published the Welsh Government’s response, our long-term plan for health and social care, 'A Healthier Wales' in June last year. It outlines how quality will be key to making the health and social care system in Wales fit for the future—a health and social care system that achieves good outcomes, good experience for people and the best value. Our plan sets out the ambitions of this Government to bring together health and social care services so that they are designed and delivered around the needs and preferences of people. Our plan emphasises the importance of continuous improvement and engagement with citizens that values and enables people to contribute their knowledge, experience and, of course, preferences.
The Bill represents a next step forward in the journey of ever-improving quality in health and social care. The Bill builds on the assets that we already have in Wales, to strengthen and futureproof our health and social care services, facilitating a stronger citizen voice, improving the accountability of services to deliver improved experience, better quality of care and better outcomes for people in Wales. The Bill introduces changes that will strengthen the existing duty of quality on NHS bodies and extend this to Welsh Ministers in relation to health service functions; establish an organisational duty of candour on providers of NHS services, requiring them to be open and honest with patients and service users when things go wrong; strengthen the voice of citizens, by replacing community health councils with a new all-Wales citizen voice body that will represent the interests of people across health and social care; and enable the appointment of vice-chairs for NHS trusts, bringing them into line with health boards.
The existing duty of quality in the 2003 Act has succeeded in providing some focus on improvement in quality and the development of an infrastructure. However, it has been interpreted in a relatively narrow way and led to attention on quality assurance rather than proactively planning and improving quality. Quality needs to be more extensive than this. I want quality to become a system-wide way of working, to enable safe, effective, person-centred, timely, efficient and equitable services. That must include the promotion of a learning culture. The Bill replaces the 2003 duty with a broader duty of quality, more in keeping with how we want our NHS bodies to work together. It will strengthen actions and decision making to drive improvements in quality across our system. And the duty of quality will be placed on NHS bodies and Welsh Ministers. It will ensure impact on the quality of services in its broadest sense. It will be the first consideration when making decisions about health services.
Inevitably, in a system as wide and complex as the NHS, things will occasionally go wrong. The duty of candour will help to ensure that when this happens, providers of NHS services are open and honest with people affected. Recent events in the former Cwm Taf area have shown us the importance of this. The Bill will help ensure that individuals are supported, that organisations do the right thing and use such events to learn and improve.
There is growing evidence that high-performing health and social care systems have people at their heart, and the starting point of any decision should be centred on what is best for the person. Delivering on our ambitions for improving quality means listening to and valuing the voice of people in Wales. Creating a new all-Wales citizen voice body will strengthen that voice across health and social services on national, regional and local levels. Strengthening public engagement, and supporting a stronger citizen voice, will amplify the influence of people. When triangulated with the work of the two inspectorates—Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and Care Inspectorate Wales—it will support the drive for higher-quality services.
Finally, the provisions on vice-chairs for NHS trusts will strengthen their governance arrangements and bring them into line with local health boards. This Bill is just one aspect of a suite of measures we are taking in our relentless drive towards increased quality in health and social care. We will, for instance, be taking forward separately further work around how service change decisions are made in the NHS and consider how the composition of health boards can be used to strengthen governance arrangements. We are also moving forward with work to strengthen regulation and inspection, including work to consider HIW’s legislative underpinning. In the short term, we have invested extra money to incrementally develop HIW sustainability and be ready to respond to any future new legislative framework.
It is my pleasure to introduce this Bill for scrutiny. I look forward to engaging with the Assembly and its committees over the coming months on a Bill that I believe will deliver positive benefits for the people of Wales. The Bill will help to realise our shared ambitions for a health and social care system with quality at its heart—a health and social care system that is open and honest, and where the voice of the citizen is heard loud and clear.

Angela Burns AC: Minister, I'd like to thank you for your statement this morning—or this afternoon—and for bringing forward the further detail on this Bill that you laid yesterday.
I think I need to start by asking you whether or not you can explain to us why you believe we need this legislation. Because, of course, we would all want to support greater quality in our public services, especially with the NHS, because that has such an immediate impact on an individual. And we would all wish to support the principle of candour. However, those two very good aims are of course hiding the dagger that is the eradication of the community health council. The Welsh Conservatives would need to have a very long conversation with you over these coming weeks and months as to whether or not that really would be of benefit to the patient and would really help to reinforce the patient voice.
It's been nine years since 'Together for Health' and it's been four years since our longest-serving health board has been in special measures, yet it's only now that the Welsh Government is bringing forward any form of legislation or thought on how to improve those quality services. And if you say—as you have said in your statement—that the current focus is too narrow, well, Minister, you and your Government have had the best part of a decade to put that right. So why do you think that legislating for it will make the difference, rather than actually the culture change, which is what we really, really need?
In terms of the duty of candour, again, I think that's a very interesting principle. Again, I would want to support that in all walks of life. I have a degree of concern about the establishment of a working group to develop guidance to determine what level of harm must be suffered before the duty is triggered. Where will the patient's voice be on that working group? Because, to be frank, if there's any level of harm, that should be the trigger. And I have a concern from what you've said, from your statement, and from the analysis of the explanatory memorandum, that there's going to be a threshold, there's going to be a bar. Where is that bar, and how high will it be?
I of course now come to community health councils, which is probably the area that gives me the greatest concern. It gives me the greatest concern because everything that you have said as a Government over these last couple of years has been about parliamentary review, has been about the vision for health, has been about empowering the patient. And yet this proposal is basically going to eradicate all of the local community health councils—the boots on the ground, the people who can walk into ward 2 at Glangwili hospital, ward 10 at Withybush Hospital, go into Bronglais, go into any hospital in Wales, and actually have a look. This is going to eradicate the local people who can actually listen to a concern raised by a local resident about the services that they receive. It's going to pop it all into a national, universal organisation—and wahey, that sounds great—but, unfortunately, we have seen this time and time again with Welsh Government, where these national bodies, stretched across the length and the breadth of Wales, simply do not perform what we need them to do. And of all of the things that the Welsh NHS should do, it should be listening to the voice of the patient, because it is a people business and it's about those patients.
So, I have real concern about the comment in your statement about triangulating this with Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, because we know, don't we, that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales has been underfunded. It's still underfunded. It's received less funding than any other Welsh inspectorate—for example £3.5 million compared with £13 million for Care Inspectorate Wales and £11.3 million for Estyn. It is also the only inspectorate body of its kind in the UK that is not fully independent from the Government that it is there to monitor. That's borne out by looking at the Marks review in 2014, where again the Marks review talked about the lack of focus, the focus being too tight and, of course, all these wonderful reports that are reactively produced just disappearing into the ether. And I think that is a real key point, Minister, because, of course, organisations like HIW react to an event. They come in afterwards and start the mopping up. CHCs are very often on the front line and are able to get in there right at the very beginning when a problem first emerges.
So, I'd really like to understand how you see the very weak HIW with very few teeth being able to support your new national body, because opposition stems from the belief that if we lose our independent CHCs we lose the ability to hold our health services to account. And to be frank, the more than obsequious press release that was popped out this morning by the NHS Confederation told me, if nothing else did, that the health boards are jumping up and down with joy, because this is the silencing of a voice. This isn't a re-empowering of a voice.
I do not understand—and I would love it if you could explain to us—why you didn't take the decision to broaden the remit of the current CHCs so that they included social care as well as healthcare, and why you didn't fund them properly, even if you put them in a structure that had more strength given to that umbrella organisation. Because they have done a very good job. I know that throughout Wales it isn't consistent. So, I do buy in to the consistency argument. But when you remember there was a CHC, not very long ago, that was threatened with court for holding its health board to account over a consultation exercise, then that speaks to me of where the power in this really lies. I would like to know—and I have caught your eye, acting Presiding Officer—I would like to know how you are going to ensure that that voice really is independent—independent of you, the Government, independent of you, the Minister, independent of the health boards, and serves the patient. Because that's their one and only job, and we do see these national bodies not doing that and they're subsumed into regional partnerships.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of questions and comments. There is broad support for the duty of quality and the duty of candour. Both the Green Paper and the White Paper consultations showed there was widespread support. You'll know about the broader issue of quality; there are a lot of commentators who think it's the right thing to do. I referred in my statement to the OECD's advice and, indeed, that's validated by the parliamentary review and duty of candour that you know came from the Francis inquiry into Mid Staffs.
Those things are, of course, worthwhile doing, and we are at this point because we've had proper consultations at the end of the last Assembly term. The Green Paper and our White Paper are now ready to come forward with legislative proposals. I reject any suggestion, inference or otherwise, that this has been deliberately held up or, indeed, that this is simply hiding the dagger about a desire to get rid of patient voice and patient representation. Far from it. And when Members go through the detail of the Bill and the policy intent, I hope that some of the statements and accusations made and the suspicions that have been regularly repeatedwill actually give way to some of the facts and the reality of what we are seeking to do in strengthening the voice of citizens across health and social care.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'll deal with your question about the level of harm before the duty of candour kicks in before I deal with the point about HIW and then the citizen voice body.
Whilst we're setting a threshold, we're talking about more than minimal harm before the duty of candour is engaged. So we're actually looking at a relatively low level and then to understand how you would describe that range of circumstances and deliver some guidance around that. That should involve a range of stakeholders, including of course patient representatives and patient voices as well. There's certainly no suggestion that we'll go into a room full of lawyers who will try to protect the NHS from any kind of complaint and to make sure that the duty of candour is meaningless. There would be no point in legislating for it and in talking about 'more than minimal harm' triggering the duty, if we then decided that actually we'd find a way of completely turning that around and making sure that it wasn't effective at all. And I hope, again, when we get to the detail of the scrutiny—and I appreciate that you won't have read through all of the Bill in all of the detail you would want to and the explanatory memorandum—we may get beyond the starting point.
On HIW, I do regularly have to remind any Conservative politician when they talk about funding: you can't avoid the consequences of austerity. I know people groan and moan about it on Conservative seats in this place when we talk about austerity, but the real impact of the choices that we have made ensures—. [Interruption.] There are incredibly difficult choices in every single public service of value. And as a health Minister, I don't set the budget for HIW, because of course it would be entirely wrong for me to do that, because then you could quite fairly say, 'You're deliberately taking money out of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to avoid them being able to do their job effectively.' I actually took steps in the last budget round to take money from health into the local government budget specifically for HIW, to make sure it is properly equipped to do the job that we want it to do. So, whilst I may have some sympathy with some of the points you made, I have zero symphathy with any Conservative speaker who complains about the underfunding of any particular public service.
And I think there's a mis-description of the function of HIW in the remarks, as well, and I hope that, during scrutiny again in the Bill, there's a clearer understanding of the role and responsibilities that HIW have. They are not a toothless organisation—far from it. And I think, when we get through the other steps we're seeking to take about the way HIW organises and undertakes its functions, you'll again see we're looking to make sure they're properly equipped to do the role we want them to do and to tidy up how they undertake their work. And that will include, of course, where it sits within and outside Government.
I'll turn, now, to the citizen voice body, which I expect we'll hear some more about today, and just to deal with the outline of what we are deliberately seeking to do, which is to give a firmer footing for a citizen voice body across health and social care. The primary legislative framework for community health councils means they can only act within the health field. As we deliberately set out to integrate health and social care, we can't have a new citizen voice body that actually spans across health and social care without changing the legislation. We're going to replace community health councils with a new citizen voice body across health and social care, and there will not be a new citizen voice body that comes into place unless and until it is ready to do so, and at that point the CHCs will go and be replaced. We're not going to have a hiatus where there are several years of no citizen voice body existing within the health field.
And, as we move forward with that body, it's important to recognise where CHCs are now. Lots of comments have been made about the independence being lost, but actually, if you look at independence now, one of the problems we have is that community health councils are hosted by Powys Teaching Health Board. They're hosted by an NHS organisation. They can't employ people directly themselves; they're employees, technically, of Powys Teaching Health Board and that causes significant problems. They can't have their own contracts in their own name, because of their arrangements. If we don't take them out and create them as a separate body, as this Bill proposes to do, we will not be able to resolve that issue. And equally, I currently, as a Minister, appoint half of the members to community health councils. I'm directly appointing half of them. That in itself doesn't make sense. We're looking to have a proper organisation, where there'll be a public appointments process for the board, and they will then determine who they employ and how they set themselves up on a local and a regional basis. That will be a process properly overseen by the public appointments commissioner, in exactly the same way that we have appointments for the chair of the board of community health councils now. Not someone that I've ever met at any point in my life before, but someone who has come through as the person who came out on top of that recruitment process. That's what we expect to seein the future for the new citizen voice body.
And in terms of our ability to make sure that there won't be any loss of boots on the ground either, there'll be a deliberate conversation about how we make sure we don't lose what CHCs currently do and the value that is placed on them, particularly in advocacy and in complaints, but in understanding how their role will be expanded across our health and social care sector fields. So, there won't be a loss of staff, a loss of resources; there are more resources going into the new body and, actually, the new body compares very well with alternative bodies across the UK on funding per head.
And I do believe that if people engage openly with what we're trying to do, then they'll see that there is honesty when I set out the policy intent about what we are trying to do to resolve the issues that we currently have, and that must mean reform, because nobody in the Green Paper or the White Paper process made a serious argument that no change was the answer. And I do hope that Members, when we go through scrutiny, will take some more comfort from the concerns that I recognise people generally do have about the new citizen voice body.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement and for the documents that he's made available to us. Our party will not be able to support the legislation as it stands, but we do appreciate some of the principles behind it, and will look through the scrutiny process to strengthen it where we can because that would of course be our preference, rather than to oppose.
A brief comment to begin with with regard to a couple of aspects that we can clearly support. The expansion of the patient voice body to cover care as well as health makes a great deal of sense to us; of course, it begs the question as to why one can't give that to the regional community health councils, but I'll come back to that in a moment. And it clearly makes absolute sense that the Minister should be able to appoint the vice-chairs of the trusts in the same way as he appoints the vice-chairs of the local health boards. That could, as the Minister said, help to improve scrutiny.
If I can turn now, acting Presiding Officer, to our concerns, I'll begin with the issue of legislating for quality. This has always struck me as slightly odd, in that you would assume that we would not have any public services in Wales where we were not intending that the services that were to be provided were of the highest possible quality. And we wouldn't on these benches be, in principle, opposed to that legislation, but in my view legislation has to have teeth. So, I'd like to ask the Minister today: will this legislation for quality introduce a system where there are consequences for individual managers when the failure to deliver quality occurs?
He is, of course, right when he says in his statement that with any organisation the size of the national health service, occasionally things will go wrong. We know that when things go wrong, doctors and nurses can be held accountable and, indeed, dismissed if they fail to deliver the quality of service and the safety of service that their patients have a right to expect. So, will this legislation give more teeth to the Minister to deal with managers when they fail to deliver? We still believe on this side of the house that we need a register for national health service managers, and that there needs to be a way to strike them off just as we can strike off doctors and nurses if they fail to perform. So, I'd be interested to hear from the Minister today whether there is potential capacity within this legislation around legislating for quality to ensure that that individual accountability is introduced.
To turn now to the citizen voice body, I just want to, if the acting Presiding Officer will indulge me for a moment, quote from a patients group, commenting on this legislation.
'Disbanding the community health councils flies in the face of logic. In the case of Tawel Fan, the community health councils were often the only support source of independent help and support—a role they undertook without fear or favour. Taking away the right to make unannounced visits really means removing impartial scrutiny.'
Now, wherever we go with this legislation, I hope that the Minister today will reconsider that clause that would take away the right to make unannounced visits. Whether it is a national body, whether we continue with more local community health councils, it is absolutely essential that those who are responsible for raising the patient voice can turn up at the very point when nobody wants them to. Otherwise, they do risk becoming pointless, and I hope the Minister will give consideration, as the legislation goes through, to changing that.
The Minister will understand, I'm sure, the concerns that people are expressing that this new national body would become remote from the communities that it served. I don't think that's inevitable; I think there may be ways in which that could be addressed, but I wonder if the Minister can tell us today: does he appreciate that that is a meaningful concern, and what consideration has he given already to how that could be addressed? It will, of course, be true, he said in his response to Angela Burns, that there will still be boots on the ground, but the generals directing those boots will be a very, very long way away from the front line if it is a national body. And we will take some convincing that this is the right way to proceed.
The Minister referred in his response to Angela Burns to the appointment process, and I wonder if he can give us further reassurance as to how that will be not only independent but perceived to be independent. At the moment, of course, the Minister appoints half the members directly, but local authorities have an input, third sector organisations have an input, and that means that people have some reassurance that the current community health councils are independent. Nobody, of course, is saying that they're perfect. There are issues around, for example, having enough capacity to be able to employ the best quality legal advice. We believe that that could be addressed by sharing services rather than by creating one new body, but I hope the Minister will acknowledge today that those concerns about independence are genuine and that he will look to address those through the process of the Bill.
I'll turn briefly to Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. I've heard what he said to Angela Burns. We do welcome the work considering giving a different legislative underpinning to Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, but can the Minister tell us today a little bit about what the timescale is for that work? Because it is clear—and we'll set aside for now the issues about resourcing, though those are important, but it is clear that there is a need for Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to be more clearly independent and to be legislatively stronger. I wonder if the Minister can tell us how long he thinks it will take for that piece of work he mentions in his statement to conclude.
Finally, to turn to the duty of candour, now, again, nobody would dispute that that will be a step forward and that that will be an improvement, but I would submit, acting Presiding Officer, that just placing that responsibility on bodies is not sufficient. The Minister in his statement refers to the situation in Cwm Taf. Well, to place on that body a duty of candour would spectacularly be shutting the stable door after the horse has long bolted. We know that, in that situation, either the management of Cwm Taf did not know what was going on, in which case they were incompetent, or they did know and chose not to publish it, in which case they were venal and corrupt. In either case, I cannot see how placing a legal duty of candour upon them would make the blindest bit of difference as to whether they operate properly or not. There are many other things that need to be done. We believe that there is a need to place a duty of candour on staff, to empower whistleblowers. If they have a legal duty and they can say to their manager, 'I have to report what I have seen because I have a legal duty of candour', that could support the legal duty of candour on the health bodies, which we wouldn't disagree with but which we don't feel is sufficient.
To conclude my comments, acting Presiding Officer—I can see that you're looking at me, and probably quite rightly—the intention behind this legislation is clearly good, but as one of my school teachers used to say to me when I was young, 'The road to hell can be paved with good intentions.' We will need to scrutinise this in great detail. And the Minister has already said, and I'm grateful to him for this, that he will welcome that scrutiny. As things stand, there are weaknesses around the duty of candour, I don't know quite what we're going to achieve with legislating for quality if we don't do the other things we need to do, and I'm far from convinced that one national body should take the place of community health councils, which, undoubtedly, do need to be strengthened.

Vaughan Gething AC: Again, thank you for the comments and questions. I won't be able to set out the answer you've asked for today on future legislation for HIW and the timescale, because I'm not in a position to announce the Government's future legislative programme, but the work is ongoing to make sure we have a firmer footing—some of that we don't need primary legislation for as well. So, I'm looking to make best use of the powers that we already have, which is part of our challenge, and I won't get drawn too far into talking about the way that Brexit has affected our ability as a Government to do a range of other things, but resources are deliberately being drawn into the legislation required to get ready for a potential 'no deal' Brexit, and you'll see more of that work happening in the run-up to October. I have spent many, many hours sat down at a desk looking at statutory instruments that have to be ready and prepared, and that is time that our drafters, our legal services, are not spending on delivering other areas of important work, and it's the time of Ministers that is taken up doing that. When I say many hours, I mean many days—many, many days of time—and there is no way of avoiding that. It is the reality that the most significant growth area in the civil service over the last year or two has been our lawyers, and I don't think that is the right priority, and I say that as a lawyer in recovery.
I'll deal with your points about quality and candour, and then I'll try to deal with the points you made about the citizen voice body. On the duty of quality, I think that when you look at the detail that's in the legislation, you will see a deliberate reframing to make it a more all-encompassing duty, because with the duties of quality and candour we're seeking to effect some cultural change.There are some harder points in there about reporting, for example, about, for example, health bodies needing to make an annual report—so to replace a current quality statement with a more expanded one, to expand the range of health bodies with the duty to make that report, and, equally, for Welsh Ministers. So, Welsh Ministers will have to lay before the Assembly every year a report on the duty of quality to demonstrate how to then factor that into Cabinet decisions and whether there's been any change in outcomes as a result of that as well. So, I think we'll have a more rounded conversation to make sure it's properly driven into our planning process, not just our quality-assurance and quality-improvement programmes as well. And this does come from updating the advice we had around the parliamentary review, with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development review as well, to actually doing what we currently understand is the right thing to do, and I hope that, as we go through the scrutiny process, the Member and others will look at what's being proposed and the evidence around it too.
On your point about the duty of candour—again, significant support in the Green Paper and White Paper consultations, and, again, this is about driving some cultural change to have a duty on organisations that complements the professional duties that many of our staff have. Because, actually, we found that if you look at where healthcare has gone wrong, and there's a cultural, systemic challenge in it, it's often because our professional staff have made reports, raised concerns, and they haven't been acted on. And they haven't been acted on at an organisational level, and that's the challenge that we are actually seeing in a significant part of what's happened in the former Cwm Taf area. Now, the requirement to have a duty of candour in an organisation should reinforce the seriousness of the concerns that are made and the duty to respond and deal with them, and, equally, it should definitely have an impact at the head of an organisation, around the boards, as well, themselves. When they have to run through the duty of candour to understand, again in an annual report, how and when that's been engaged, it will rehighlight the number of areas where that should have taken place. And this is part of a cultural change that we're actually seeking to introduce and actually see the citizen voice body as part of that cultural change as well. Knowing that there is both a duty of quality and candour I think should help them in their work to make sure they understand what is happening in each of our organisations and to make sure they are properly representing and advocating for the voice of the citizen.
I'll come back now to the concerns about how independent, really, the citizen voice body will be. Well, as I say, it will be a board, through a proper public appointments process, overseen by the Commissioner for Public Appointments, and that will then have responsibility for the whole organisation across the country, including their local and regional structures. Rather than the Government setting out in a prescriptive manner, 'Here is the structure you must have', it will have to set that out. It will have duties to set out in its annual work plan how it proposes to actually undertake its duties. It will then actually provide an annual report and then a plan for the year ahead as well. So, there will be real clarity and scrutiny of the ability to scrutinise that body to see where we've undertaken this action, how it meets its mission across the country, rather than a Government Minister in the legislation prescribing the organisational structure that it must have. But I would certainly expect that body to have a proper local and regional locus as well. But it's a matter for it to determine.
And in terms of visits—look, this is a challenge about the line between a citizen voice body and where the inspectorate undertakes proper inspections, but the visits, which we understand that community health councils value and how those are properly undertaken—. And I do expect to be able to deliver guidance on that to set out powers and functions, but part of this is—as we expect to deliver a new system, as we expect to have a more integrated approach to health and social care, much of the work that we observe will be in people's homes. Because there can't be a straightforward power to demand access to wherever care is taking place, because if I'm sat in my living room, whether it's health or social care, a third party should not be able to say, 'I require entry to your home', whether that home is a terraced house or whether that home is a residential care home. So, there is a challenge about making sure that we have duties and responsibilities that recognise how care is being delivered. I want to find an answer to that, and I will be genuinely interested in the comments that Members have to make and the evidence given in Stage 1, to think about how we make sure and inform a useful way to make sure that the duty exists and to make sure that CHCs and the new citizen voice body can undertake their function and can support the citizen to make sure the citizen voice is genuinely heard and respected.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister, as well as your written statement accompanying the Bill released yesterday. I must admit, 24 hours was not a long time to absorb the explanatory memorandum, but I have sufficient detail to get the gist of the debate.
Minister, as I've said to you in the past, I accept that everything wasn't rosy with the community health councils, however, I feel there needs to be reform and not wholesale annihilation. Whilst some community health councils were not working as intended, other, particularly in north Wales, community health councils truly were the patients' champion. And I accept that not every health council operated like this, often just acting as a rubber stamp for the local health board decisions, but this was a capacity and independence issue.
With some structural changes and reform into a national body with regional committees, we could have strengthened the patient's voice. And this is the object of the exercise, isn't it? Improving the patient's voice and enhancing it. Instead, we have the HealthandSocial Care(Quality and Engagement) (Wales)Billthat stifles the patient's voice.
Minister, can you explain why you removed the ability for the new citizen voice body to make inspection visits to hospital wards and to challenge service changes? This new body will only be as strong as the people serving on it. Minister, your EM to the Bill talks about encouraging a more diverse volunteer base. So, what processes will you put in place to ensure that these volunteers receive adequate training to enable them to challenge authority, to stand up as a strong, truly independent and politically neutral voice for patients? In that vein, I note the inclusion of vice-chairs for hospital trusts. What steps are you taking to ensure that these vice-chairs are clinical rather than political appointments?
Although I have serious concerns with much of this Bill, I do welcome the duty of candour; it's long overdue. It has been around five years since the Evans review called for a no-blame culture. However, as the NHS Confederation points out, more clarity is needed on what this duty actually means and how it will fit in with existing policies. What role willHealth Education and Improvement Wales and Social Care Wales play in developing the duty and rolling out training to all staff?
Thank you once again, Minister. I look forward to the detailed scrutiny. I will work with Members across this Chamber to improve this Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: On your last point, there will of course be a need for training across the services and the system to make sure that people are used to the new system we're looking to introduce, and to be properly ready for it to deliver the benefit we want for both staff and people.
On your point about vice-chairs, I thought I heard you say that you wanted assurance that vice-chairs won't be political appointments but will be clinical appointments. Vice-chairs are not political appointments; they go through a proper public appointments process already, and that will be the same for NHS trust vice-chairs. And they are not clinical appointments either; there's a governance and leadership role that vice-chairs undertake, and we're looking to regularise that with health boards, as opposed to adding additional responsibilities on to current trust vice-chairs. That isn't a satisfactory way to move forward and, actually, there's been widespread support for wanting to do that.
On your point about service change: community health councils themselves and the national board of community health councils didn't argue for the retention of a power to refer in service change proposals. They're actually interested in the point about continuous engagement, to make sure this isn't suddenly something that is sprung on people with a few weeks' notice, but there is much deeper and broader engagement, through time, as proposals are developed. Because our health service and our social care system can't stand still; there has to be a constant evolution and reform that must take place. I'm expecting to revise the guidance on the service change, and I would still expect consultation and engagement with the new citizen voice body around service change proposals, and I hope that in revising that guidance we can reiterate that and make that clear, and I expect that I'll be asked a similar question through committee scrutiny, so I'll be happy to reiterate that broader point.
And just to go back again—the new citizen voice body is not going to be an inspectorate. Community health councils aren't looking to be an alternative to the inspectorate function. It's how we make sure that the voice of the citizen is properly given a platform, and how people are given support as part of that in terms of advocacy across our health and social care system, but it is more than advocacy. And in the Bill, you'll see duties where the citizen voice body requests information from a health or social care provider, then a reasonable request must be responded to by whoever the provider is across social care or health. So, there are powers in the Bill to ensure that the new body can undertake its functions, because I am genuinely looking at reform not annihilation.
I really do hope, as we go through this Bill, that Members, again, will look at what is being proposed and not simply default into, 'This must be a bad thing, and let's fight it tooth and nail', because, actually, we can't simply extend out the powers of community health councils. We do need to have a proper body across health and social care. We should take the opportunity to make sure it has a proper independent footing to allow it to do its job.
But I would gently say to the Member that in describing the current activities of community health councils in different parts of Wales, I don't know of a single one of them that would be happy to be described as a rubber stamp for the local health board. There are different relationships, and when they come to give evidence, I'd ask the Member to think again about—I think I understand some of the point she's trying to make—the manner in which that is actually done.

Suzy Davies AC: Finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, acting Chair. Anyway, I'm really pleased and I welcome seeing this Bill coming forward. I like the idea of the emphasis being on quality and candour, and broadening the definitions that an all-Wales citizen voice body will be able to work across. I want to also make it very clear that the community health councils have done remarkable work, and they've done it to the best of their ability in most cases, and I, for one, have valued their work and their advice and guidance in the past. I just wanted to put that on the record, because I'm sure that others feel the same.
I think it's right that we look at proactive planning and safe, effective and person-centred services going forward, but I think what really is necessary, and it's being delivered here, is the joining up of health and social care services, and underpinning that structure—as well as being national, it's regional and local level. Because one of the weaknesses that have been identified and talked about here already today has been that weakness in the social care sector, where CHCs clearly couldn't go in.
What I'm hoping will come out here is this clear separation of who is the inspectorate and who is the body that is monitoring some progress, and I'm sure all these details will come out as we go further through examining these proposals. I think the problem that we have at the moment, if we're moving back to candour—very often, litigation gets in the way of candour at the moment, and that is fairly obvious. That can't be a good thing in every case, so I'm hoping that, somehow, we can move forward into, perhaps, a less cautious response because of the threat of litigation and an open and clear determination in the way that I have just described—that we get safe, effective and person-centred improvement in services. Because there is no doubt that—and I'm old enough to remember—when you would have a little bit more candour because you didn't have the ultimate threat of litigation—. I think that if we can move back to that, we could make some progress, perhaps, in some cases, a little bit quicker, and that is in both the social care now, which it's expanding, and the health sectors.So, I look forward, like many others here, to seeing the progress of this coming forward, and, if it is the case, the improvements—if they are needed—in those discussions that we will have, not just us here amongst each other, but with those people that we're hoping these improvements will make the difference to.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions and comments, and I think it's important—it's the point you were making, Joyce Watson, about making sure this is genuinely across health and social care. And it's interesting that we've worked together with the WLGA and voices across local government about the proposal, including the new citizen voice body, where, of course, there are elected representatives who do take up matters within local government for their constituents, and understanding how they'll work alongside each other in genuinely listening to and engaging with the voice of the citizen. But the duties imposed to supply information to the new citizen voice body, as I say, extend across health and local government. So, we're genuinely and deliberately drawing together the two sectors in the way that we're drawing together care across those two sectors as well.
It's worth also pointing out that the national board of the community health council have been broadly positive about the Bill that we're bringing. So, perhaps some members in this room who have been more critical should look at the way in which we have genuinely worked in advance of the statement, the way in which there will be conversations that are ongoing between officials in my department and the board of the community health council to make sure we do get the legislation right to meet the shared purpose we have, and that does include clarity between the role of inspectorates and the role of the citizen voice body. I don't think there is a desire within the community health council movement to have that sort of deliberate fuzzy overlap between inspectorates and community health councils. There's an opportunity to get that right not just within the legislation but within the guidance and what will understandably be built on in terms of the memorandum of understanding that already exists between community health councils and our inspectorates now.
But I think it's an important point that Joyce Watson made about the impact between litigation and the duty of candour, and the engagement of the duty of candour does not equal an admission of negligence. It's an acknowledgement that there is a need to have an open conversation with the citizen about what has happened in healthcare, and more than minimal harm can be caused in the normal risks that we all know take place within the delivery of health and care— but to be open about the fact that something has happened as opposed to saying, 'I can't talk to you because I'm worried that you'll go to a lawyer.' That's part of the challenge we have in a more closed culture that is more defensive. This is deliberately part of engagement to have a much more open culture that's focused on improvements, so candour and quality have to be seen together, and I hope that, as Members go through scrutiny, they'll see that it's not just an honest attempt, but, broadly, we've got the approach in the right place to deliver that in reality.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you very much, Minister and Members.

4. Statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs: Clean Air

Suzy Davies AC: The next item is the statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs on clean air. I call on the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Chair. Air pollution is the most serious environmental health risk we face today. Welsh Government is reducing the exposure of people and the natural environment to harmful air pollution through delivering new infrastructure, strengthening regulation and undertaking robust monitoring and evidence gathering.
Clean air is central to our well-being, and our approach to tackling air pollution is guided by the ways of working identified by the well-being of future generations Act. The level of nitrogen dioxide pollution is one of the national indicators created by the Act, which we use to measure progress towards our well-being goals.Due to the continued impact of air quality issues on people and the environment, Welsh Government has committed to bring forward a new clean air Act. We are committed to taking all practical measures to improve air quality, not just in the most polluted hotspots, but across all of Wales.
Air pollution has the greatest impact on the most vulnerable people in our society: children, older people, those with chronic health conditions, and people living in deprived areas. Air pollution is also affecting the condition of our natural environment, threatening our most rare and endangered plant species, and causing widespread damage to crops and forests.In Wales, the single most problematic source of air pollution is road traffic, although pollution from industry, agriculture and domestic burning also require our urgent attention.
Action by Government and industry over the last three decadeshas led to a dramatic declinein some air pollutants, whilst others have changed little and some have even shown small increases in recent years. The levels of pollution to which our citizens and our natural environment are exposed are still too high, and further action is required.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The World Health Organization publish air quality guidelines based on the latest scientific evidence of the impact of air pollutants on human health. For some air pollutants, there is no safe level of exposure, and, in these circumstances, the guidance suggests levels that represent an achievable minimum. These guidelines are intended as a starting point for national Governments to develop measures that reflect the local factors that are known to shape the impacts of air pollution. We are considering World Health Organization guideline levels for particulate matter. This will enable us to understand practical aspects of achieving air quality improvements and inform our future plans.
The current legal limits on air pollution are derived from the law of the European Union, and set a minimum acceptable standard. The need for rules at EU level reflects the fact that air pollution does not respect national borders and requires a concerted response at local, national and international levels. Whatever the outcome of the Brexit process, we are committed to ensuring our environmental protections are aligned to those at EU level, with absolutely no lowering of standards.
Delivering against these standards requires collaborative action across Government and society. Therefore, the responsibility for tackling air pollution is shared right across the Cabinet. I have been working with the Minister for Economy and Transport on actions to address nitrogen dioxide exceedance in five sites across our strategic motorway and trunk road network. I am pleased to announce that 50 mph speed limits will be in place on a permanent basis across all five sites by the middle of July. We will be enhancing communications around the reason for the speed restrictions and providing new permanent traffic sign layouts at all sites, so that the public is aware of the importance of these measures.
At the end of this month, I'm due to receive feasibility study reports from Cardiff and Caerphilly councils, outlining action that they will take to achieve legal limits for nitrogen dioxide in the shortest possible time frame. The plans will be independently assessed by a panel of experts next month, and I intend to make a final decision on the implementation of measures as soon as possible thereafter, based on the evidence and advice.
Achieving clean air means that, as a society, we must reduce our reliance on the private car and encourage walking, cycling and use of public transport. Welsh Government is investing heavily in creating active travel routes across Wales, with more than £30 million of investment under way and more planned for next year. Our ambition for all buses and taxis to be low or no carbon emissions by 2028 will ensure that increasing use of public transport can contribute to improving air quality, as well as moving us towards a low-carbon economy.
Tackling air quality requires changes to the planning system to prevent air quality issues before they arise. Following changes to strengthen requirements to address air quality considerations in the revised 'Planning Policy Wales', published last year, I am pleased that planning officials and my own are developing a new technical advisory note for planners and developers on air quality and soundscape, following a focused call for evidence later this year.
Having the best available evidence is essential so that we can maximise the positive impact of the measures we take to address air pollution. In April this year, I commissioned an extensive assessment of multi-pollutant and cross-sector emission reduction measures. This research will provide the most detailed assessment ever conducted of air quality across Wales. It will consider the full range of possible interventions and assess them on the basis of value for money. Crucially, it will assess the potential impact of those measures against the seven wellbeing goals from our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act. This evidence will be used to inform our clean air plan for Wales. In turn, the plan will identify those areas that require the changes to legislation to be addressed through our clean air Act.
From our first breath to our last, we all need clean air to lead healthier and happier lives. The action I have described demonstrates Welsh Government’s commitment to delivering new infrastructure, evidence and regulation to help to achieve this aim. There is also action we can all take today to avert the dangers of air pollution. We can all reduce our personal contributions to air pollution and our exposure to it. That is why Welsh Government has partnered with Global Action Plan for the first time to celebrate Clean Air Day on 20 June. It is vital we inform everyone about the causes of air pollution and the role we each have in tackling it. So, I urge all Members of the National Assembly and everyone listening to this debate to support the Clean Air Day campaign and consider what you can do to ensure that Wales breathes clean air.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Commissioner. Minister, thank you for your statement today. This is one of the areas where we desperately need to make significant progress, with 2,000 premature deaths a year just in Wales alone. That's five people a day who are dying prematurely because of the poor air quality we have here in Wales. Cardiff and Port Talbot, for example, have a higher particulate level in the air that people breathe in those two areas than Birmingham or Manchester, and, as someone who was in the Birmingham and Manchester area over the weekend, when you think of the scale of those two areas and the level of potential pollution in those areas, that really drives home how far behind the curve we are here in Wales. I do think that the Welsh Government need to step up and improve their actions in this particular area. In particular, in January this year, obviously, they admitted that they weren't meeting their legal requirements—or the Welsh Government weren't meeting their legal requirements—so, can you confirm, Minister, that, after today's statement and the actions you've outlined in the statement, the Welsh Government is now meeting its legal requirements when it comes to air quality, or, if you are not meeting those legal requirements, when are you likely to be meeting the basic levels that are set under law to you as a Government?
You touched in the statement on the 50 mph speed limits that you're going to put in place along the trunk road and the motorway network in Wales; I have to say, that would be a dream for many people stuck on the M4 day in, day out, and the pollution that comes from static traffic on three lanes—well, six lanes, in effect, because very often it's both ways—is a massive issue for people who live in the Newport and the south-east Wales area. So, I wish you well on your public information campaign, but, if you're saying about 50 mph, most people would say you dare not get close to 50 mph at most times of the day on that particular motorway.
But I do think it is important that we understand why you're not coming to the Chamber today and maybe embracing some of the actions the UK Government has taken around air quality. [Interruption.] Well, it is truth. The World Health Organization themselves have said that the statement and the strategy that the UK Government—and I hear, from a sedentary position, laughs, but the World Health Organization said that the strategy that the UK Government has put in place is an example for the rest of the world to follow. So, that's not politicians saying that, that's the World Health Organization. But I'm sure the nationalists might know better than the World Health Organization.
So, could I ask—[Interruption.] Could I ask why the Minister hasn't seen fit to maybe adopt such a strategy here in Wales, given that I wouldn't suggest that there are massive differences between our economy and what's going on across the border and Offa's Dyke? And, if that strategy is robust enough for the World Health Organization, why haven't we adopted that here in Wales?
Also, I note in the statement that the Minister says that our policies and laws are based on the EU standards. It is a fact that, obviously, the World Health Organization standards are above those European standards and the UK Government has signed up to meet those WHO standards. Could the Minister confirm that it would be certainly an aspiration for the Welsh Government to deliver to WHO rather than EU standards? Because that would see a step change again in what we could achieve here in Wales. You've talked about a cleaner air Act, Minister; I'd be grateful to understand—talking about 2021, that Act coming forward from the Welsh Government, I seem to recall that being election year for us here in the Assembly, so is that more of a commitment from the Welsh Government that it would be in a manifesto, or is it going to be actually delivered and implemented by 2021? What is the timetable that the Welsh Government is working to to deliver such an Act? Because I'm sure—. I think there is cross-party support for such an Act, and it would be a relatively simple legislative process—perhaps it's wrong to actually say any legislative process is simple, but there's widespread support to see legislation in this particular area.
I'd also like to understand why Cardiff and Caerphilly—I can understand why, because they've got quite high pollution levels—are submitting plans to your good self and you're awaiting those plans, but why other areas in Wales—and I highlighted Port Talbot, for example—haven't got the same obligation placed on themselves to submit action plans for how they're going to set about improving the air quality that residents and businesses in those areas currently suffer under.
I'd also draw your attention to the proposals that the Conservatives brought forward, under my predecessor in this portfolio responsibility, David Melding, in the 'Liveable Cities' document, which talked about using the planning system and talked about creating clean air zones. There is a road map to make quick gains in this particular area, and I have to say I'm not convinced, reading this statement, that we're going to achieve that. So, I look forward to hearing your answers.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Andrew, for those questions and comments. Specifically, Cardiff and Caerphilly have very specific concerns around air pollution and I know my officials have been working very closely, not just since I've been in portfolio but when Hannah Blythyn was the Minister for Environment, to address those concerns. We've helped fund their feasibility studies and they are reporting to me by the end of the month.
You mentioned Port Talbot specifically, and obviously we have been doing a great deal of work to understand the issues in the area around air quality. So far this year, monitored levels of particulate matter across all the monitoring sites that we have in Port Talbot have not triggered action through the short-term action plan we have there and do remain within reasonable limits. But again, I think it's really important that we keep on top of that, so I've asked my officials to re-examine that short term action plan to ensure it's still the best way of tackling poor air quality in Port Talbot.
You mentioned the five 50 mph sites. This is a really interesting thing that we brought forward. I actually have one in my own constituency, so obviously I know that one the best. I'm waiting to hear what the outcome is of that 50 mph zone. My concern is that people are not keeping to it. I'm going along at 50 mph and people are overtaking me, I would say, all the time. I think one of the areas where I do have concerns—and this will be addressed when we bring the five sites forward on a permanent basis—is that people don't understand why they are 50 mph sites. So, I think we need signs saying, 'Poor air quality kills, reduce your speed.' So, we're working on that signage, because certainly I've heard people say in Wrexham that they think it's because of speed and why aren't the police enforcing it. So, I think we need to make the public aware of why we're bringing those 50 mph sites in—why we've brought them in, sorry—and why we're going to make them permanent.
In relation to the UK Government, I'm very happy to learn from the UK Government when they're bringing forward ideas and schemes that would help us, and we certainly engage with them on relevant matters in relation to air quality, because as you'll be aware, Welsh Ministers do have limited executive functions. If you think about regulation of construction, for instance, which obviously impacts on this, the equipment of motor vehicles, vehicle specification standards, for instance—so, we are working with the UK Government.
You're quite right about world health guidelines. Certainly, I've asked—I think I mentioned in my statement that I have asked officials to look at them. I think they're about 50 per cent more stringent than EU levels. So, it's certainly something that I've asked officials to look at, and I'm waiting for further advice on that point.
You asked about the clean air Act—that was a commitment from the First Minister in his manifesto—and you were asking about the timescale. We are going to consult on a clean air plan for Wales in the autumn and the plan will set out the key pollutants and their effects on public health and, of course, our environment. It will include measures to achieve compliance with all legislative requirements. That will then inform what we bring forward in an Act.
So, I can't give you a timescale, but certainly the First Minister is committed to bringing that forward as soon as possible. I think the point that you make about cross-party agreement—if any legislation process is easy, I think you're right; this could be something that we could look at. I think I would have to update you on the timescale following the consultation in the autumn.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you. It is, of course, clean air week, and I have to say, Minister, that I had expected a statement or a significant announcement from you today, but all we’ve had, really, is echoing your commitment to a clean air Act for Wales, no further detail on the content of such an Act, and very little detail on the timetabling for bringing forward such legislation. So, what progress are you as a Government making in developing this legislation?
You say in your statement that you are committed to a clean air plan for Wales—I already knew that—but there’s been no progress. You’ve just referred to some vague date in the autumn for a consultation, but there's no mention of introducing such a plan. You say in your statement that you are committed to taking all possible steps to improve air quality. Well, where are those additional steps, rather than just some reference to things that you’ve already announced? All that’s contained within this statement is a rehash of previous announcements, and I have to say that that is extremely disappointing.
Now, Plaid Cymru, of course, has raised this issue regularly over the past few years. I remember debates in this Chamber, 12 months and more back, asking for urgent action. Dr Dai Lloyd is the chair of the cross-party group on a clean air Act in the Assembly. So, when will we see a clean air plan published? Not a consultation—when do you intend to bring a plan forward and implement it? When does this Government intend to table a clean air Bill before this Assembly? I had hoped that this Thursday would be the last Clean Air Day for Wales without there being legislation having been adopted and in place. And that, of course, would help us to tackle the scourge of air pollution once and for all. So, when will it happen? Because if we have to wait another 12 months, then what that means, of course, is that the Welsh Government will be suffering an additional 2,000 deaths as a result of air pollution because of those delays, and that is scandalous. It is a national scandal and it is disgraceful.
The Government, your Government and this Assembly has declared a climate emergency—a climate emergency. Public Health Wales has declared that air pollution is a public health crisis—a public health crisis. Now, I wasn’t expecting an update in this statement, not business as usual. It is time, now, for a change of gear and to put one’s foot down, but what we get is a Government on autopilot, and that isn’t acceptable.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm very disappointed that Llyr has taken that stance. You will have heard my answer to Andrew R.T Davies around the clean air Act. Again, you will have heard—I think you were in the Chamber—Vaughan Gething say about the—. In relation to legislation, Vaughan Gething was talking about statutory instruments; I've done 95 statutory instruments this year. You must realise the constraints that we have on legislation. I will be consulting in the autumn on the clean air plan. I would hope to bring forward a Bill next year, but I will have to update the Chamber and Members regarding that following the consultation. But for the First Minister, it was one of his manifesto commitments when he became First Minister in December, so I know he is very keen to bring forward an Act.
There is a great deal of work going on across Government. I absolutely agree with you that we need to make progress here, and I mentioned in my statement that one of the main issues we have to deal with is road traffic. And I think the more we can do in relation to bringing forward schemes to ensure that people can access public transport easier, that we encourage walking, we encourage cycling—. We've got the active travel and we've put significant funding into that—£30 million. There's a great deal of monitoring being done across Wales with the local authorities that have had that funding to bring forward their schemes.
You mentioned the climate emergency. I think it's really important that we don't mix up climate change, air quality and decarbonisation. Whilst of course they're integrated, they are separate things. Certainly, I read something in the press this week that made me think that people are starting to put the things together. And, as I said, there's obviously integration, but I think we do need to make sure that we keep them separate when we're looking at specific issues.
You asked about what additional things we've done. We've allocated over £20 million for an air quality fund and takes us through to 2021.That is helping us to accelerate compliance with nitrogen dioxide limits and improve air quality across Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the statement. One of the problems we have is that PM2.5s and PM10s cannot be seen, but they do damage to lungs by irritating and corroding the alveolar wall and, consequently, impair lung function. We need clean air. Will the Minister, in conjunction with ministerial colleagues, consider the following: banning new incinerators except for medical incinerators to deal with pathogens; produce plans to reduce air pollution in areas such as Hafod and Fabian Way in Swansea, where it is not the speed limit but the slow-moving and stationary vehicles that are causing the problem; and, finally, banning the burning of waste by individuals in their gardens, which often includes plastics and other items that do serious damage to the air?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm certainly very happy to have those discussions with a range of ministerial colleagues. Clearly, air quality is a matter across Government, and it's certainly discussed in Cabinet. But I will look at all those issues and write to you further.

John Griffiths AC: As you rightly say in your statement, Minister, obviously road traffic is a very significant aspect of air pollution, and we've already heard reference to the problems on the M4 around Newport. Can I say, Minister, that I very much welcome the decision of the First Minister to go forward with an integrated transport response to those problems? It seems to me that the idea that you can deal with the problems caused by road traffic by building more and more roads, which then fill up with more and more traffic journeys, is not a very logical conclusion to come to. What we really need is a step change and that modal shift to get people and freight increasingly off our roads and on to our trains and buses, and, of course, to increase active travel as part of that, so we get the physical fitness health benefits as well as better air to breathe.
Would you agree with me, Minister, that 20 mph zones go very well with the sort of active travel increases that we want to see, and that they also go very well with encouraging our children to cycle, walk and scoot to school, which would be a very important contribution, I think, to dealing with air pollution on our roads, in our streets? Because I think we all know that when the schools are on holiday, there's much less traffic around, much less air pollution. We often see the chaos that exists around schools when parents are finding improbable places to park where they really shouldn't park, engines are left running, stationary vehicles are left with their engines running, and the children are in the middle of all of this, along with the school staff and, indeed, the parents who are walking to school with their children.
Lots of things can be done to deal with those issues: walking buses, policies to reward children and to make it an aim of the school to increase walking, scooting and cycling. Indeed, Ringland Primary in my constituency has increased that active travel to school by 20 per cent in the last year, and it's now just under half of the pupils that travel to school in that way. It's perfectly possible, but it seems to me we need something more comprehensive right across Wales, something more systemic, Minister, so that it's not left up to individual schools or, indeed, local authorities.
Just two other matters I'd like to mention. One is taxi fleets. I've mentioned to you before, Minister, that if we had a conversion of taxi fleets to Calor Gas, for example, we'd get a huge improvement as far as the air pollution issues are concerned. And the cost of the conversions typically repay themselves in just a couple of years. I'm puzzled, really, as to why we haven't seen more of that sort of initiative. Also, does your remit on air pollution run to smoking in public places? Because I know many people feel very strongly, particularly people with conditions like asthma, that breathing in smoke in the outdoor areas of cafes and restaurants, in parks, in town and city centres, is a real health hazard to them and a big pollutant of the air that they breathe.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, John Griffiths, for those questions. I have asked officials, because I think you've asked me a couple of times around taxi fleets, and I have asked officials to look specifically at Calor Gas and to see where else in the world they are used to be able to inform that.
Smoking in public places, no, it doesn't come within my remit, but, as I said, this is a matter for every member of the Government, so I'll ensure that the Minister for Health and Social Services hears your comments. For those of us who don't suffer with respiratory disease, smoke—certainly the change, and obviously Wales was the first country to ban smoking in enclosed places, and we now accept that as completely normal, whereas not that long ago when you went into a pub, for instance, smoking was allowed and the impact it must have had on so many of us—.
In relation to schools, I think you raise a really important point and, also, around behavioural change. The primary school that you mention from your own constituency is clearly a good example of that. If we think how we started raising public awareness and behavioural change around recycling, for instance, and climate change, it's with young people, so I think this is an excellent example of the school run, for want of a better word. Certainly, we know that the school run has a significant contribution in relation to levels of air pollution and traffic congestion on our roads within many school catchment areas, and that's certainly during the term-time rush-hour, as you alluded to. I think there's also the potential, going back to that behavioural change that is needed, for schools to help educate both children and parents on the issues around air quality and help us explore potential solutions, such as car sharing and if there are no-idling policies also on and around school grounds. So, we do give statutory guidance to local authorities, because we do recognise that schools and active travel routes, amongst others, are sort of sensitive receptor locations.

Joyce Watson AC: We've got four speakers left and 15 minutes. I'll just highlight that. The next speaker is Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: Minister, could you clarify about the 50 mph limits? Five of them, you're saying, are now being made permanent. What evidence have we got as to how they've worked in terms of reducing or otherwise the pollutants we're concerned about? I get representations particularly around the 50 mph limit approaching the Brynglas tunnels, and I know there can be other reasons for that, but the emphasis recently has been on the air pollution when I've had responses. I just wonder how successful or otherwise that has been. Some people suggest that the reduction to 50 mph actually causes traffic to concertina in a way that leads to some of the congestion, and an inspector on the M4 said that the relief road would reduce climate change emissions and air pollution. Clearly, you're not going ahead with that, but is this 50 mph limit having the effect you would like?
Could you also clarify—? I think you made a remark about the one in or near your constituency, about police perhaps not enforcing in the same way they would if it was a question of normal speeding. Are these limits dealt with by the police in the same way as ones where the issue is safety as opposed to air pollution?
You said in your statement that the need for rules at EU level reflects the fact that air pollution does not respect national borders. That may be the case for some pollutants—sulphur dioxide would be an obvious example—but for the ones we're most concerned about here—the nitrogen dioxide and the particulates—they're actually hyper-localised. I'm very careful when I walk my three children along a main road as part of them getting to school. Even just being on the pavement away from the cars, the medical advice is that that's significantly better.
You say you don't want us to mix up climate change and air quality, but public policy has done that. Whether it's the European Union with its diesel standards and lax or non-enforcement of those or whether it's Gordon Brown with his tax incentives to move away from petrol towards diesel, it's those in combination that have led us to much of the pollution problem we have now for air quality on the nitrogen dioxide and on the particulates, which are so severe and which, as Andrew R.T. Davies said, are killing 2,000 people a year prematurely. Do you now accept that it was a mistaketo incentivise a switch from petrol to diesel? And while, no doubt, you would prefer people to go electric and the UK Government's just withdrawn some of the incentives on that, is it better for people to buy petrol rather than diesel cars, notwithstanding the higher carbon dioxide emissions in that area? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to the 50 mph sites, I think it's fair to say the evidence is mixed. In relation to the Wrexham one, what I said was I don't think people understand why there is a 50 mph site imposed. They think it's because of traffic calming or reducing speed and they wonder why the police aren't enforcing it. I didn't say the police would be enforcing it in relation to carbon emissions. So, what I have said is I would like to continue with the 50 mph sites, the five of them, but there must be signage explaining exactly what the reduction is for because I don't think people understand that. So, certainly the one in Wrexham, which I know the best because it's in my constituency, just says, 'Emissions reduction'. It's just a little sign that says, 'Emissions reduction', which people clearly don't understand. So, I don't think people have been adhering to it because I think there has been a little bit of confusion as to what it's for and because if they think it's because of speed and it's not being enforced, then they don't stick to the 50 mph. Certainly, the evidence that I've seen from across the five sites is mixed, but I think if we have signage saying very clearly that poor air quality kills—and I think that you have to sometimes shock people—then people will adhere to the reduction more willingly.
I think hindsight's a wonderful thing. Certainly, I remember when we were all told to get diesel cars. What I would like to see now is a move to electric vehicles more. Unfortunately, we need the infrastructure to go with it, and we gave £2 million to put more electric vehicle charging points, for instance, in across Wales because we need to make sure that people can get about without the worry of running out of charge and then not being able to find a charging point. I think we need to do a significant amount of work to make sure that we have the infrastructure in place.

Joyce Watson AC: I've got three speakers now, and if they're all succinct, I might get you all in. So, it's up to you. The next speaker is Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. This is such an important issue, especially when we all know the harm that air pollution causes. Like so many of the Valleys communities, my area is one where air was contaminated by heavy industry with the iconic Phurnacite smokeless fuel plant closing 30 years ago, but the legacy that that's left, particularly with respiratory conditions in the community, are still very much ongoing.
I've just got two questions for you today. The first is also around the 50 mph zones. There's one, as you will know, at Pontypridd and Upper Boat, which is just outside of my constituency, and I'd concur with the comments that you made there. I travel through that zone virtually every day and I feel like I'm the only one who's travelling at 50 mph, and there are definitely no signs there to explain why it is a 50 mph zone. I do think that local people would actually be much more supportive if they knew the reason for that, to the extent that I've actually had representations from constituents who live just north of that zone in my constituency, at Cilfynydd, who have asked me why the zone can't be extended to cover their area as well. They do know that that is about air quality emissions and they're particularly concerned because Pontypridd High School sits right next to the A470 there and there's a proposal to co-locate Cilfynydd Primary School onto the same site. I've had very strong representation from people there who would welcome the extension of the 50 mph zone to cover and protect the children in that area. So, I wonder what your thoughts are in regard to that.
And my final question is just to note the social justice angle here as well, which you alluded to in your statement. We know that deprivation, health inequalities and air pollution are so very closely linked, so I wonder what discussions you've been having with other ministerial colleagues about how we can tackle that.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Vikki Howells for those two questions and I absolutely agree with you because I've had representations from my own constituents around this 50 mph, and I think you're quite right that local people would be much more willing to drive at 50 mph because I sometimes feel I'm the only one driving at 50 mph. That's not actually true, but it just feels like that, and particularly when people are whizzing past you. But if there was a sign saying exactly what that was for and, as I say, sometimes it's necessary to shock people. So, officials and I have been pondering about what wording to use because you've only actually got about four words to use and then it obviously will need to be bilingual. So, you don't want massive signs, but equally it needs to be very powerful, I think, to make people realise.
In relation to an extension, I'll probably have a look at the ongoing evidence—as I say, it's very mixed at the moment, but I think it's mixed because people don't understand the purpose of it—before considering any extensions. And you're quite right, it is about social justice and about addressing those inequalities. You mentioned heavy industry in your opening remarks, and certainly there are conversations around a further extension of the ban on smoking in public places that John Griffiths alluded to, so I am having those discussions across Government.

Jenny Rathbone AC: As you say, the single biggest problematic source of air pollution is road traffic, so it isn't sufficient to simply move from diesel to petrol, or even, indeed, to electric cars. You still get loads of particulates from the wheels.
You mention that you're getting these feasibility studies from Cardiff and Caerphilly councils on how they're going to achieve legal limits for nitrogen dioxide in the shortest possible time frame, so I hope your panel of experts will pick up on the fact that whilst the plan for the city centre is very good news, particularly for the residents of Westgate Street, where they are suffering really significant levels of air pollution, there really isn't very much to address the wider issues of the air pollution that Andrew R.T. Davies mentioned in his initial contribution.
Children don't live in the city centre. Whilst I welcome the zero-emission buses that are due to go down Newport Road, which is where there are several schools as well as quite a lot of very built up residential areas, particularly houses in multiple occupation—these are not the people who get choices about where they live—nevertheless, there's another area where there's nothing that will make anything better for the schools around the Llanedeyrn interchange with the A48. There are three schools and a nursery and very significant levels of air pollution, and I know that there are significant respiratory problems there. So, I feel that there is more needed from Cardiff to ensure that people across the city are addressing this matter and are making that shift to active travel.
I particularly would like you, in your clean air plan, to look at the misnomered school run, because it's neither a run nor a walk or even a cycle. And, really, that seems to me one of the first ways in which we reduce traffic because it's evident when the schools are on holiday that there's a massive reduction in traffic. So, for starters, if we could get all secondary schools in urban areas with active travel routes so that young people could either cycle or walk to school, that would be so much better for developing their independence as well as for the environment in general. So, I hope that you might be able to address this in your clean air plan, which we look forward to.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for those comments and questions. As you say, and as I've stated in earlier answers, Cardiff council are required to submit a final plan to me by the end of this month as to how they are going to achieve the statutory nitrogen dioxide limit values in their area within the shortest possible time. And I will have this independent expert review panel, who I've asked to scrutinise evidence. I want that information as quickly as possible—I've said by the end of next month. At the moment, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on the council plans at this stage.
You're quite right around vehicles. It is road traffic that does have such a massive impact, and we do need to encourage a shift. And going back to what you were saying about the school run, we need to encourage a shift from over-reliance, I think, on the private car, to much more sustainable modes of transport such as walking and cycling and public transport, and that's obviously a key element of our policy approach.
I mentioned in an earlier answer about active travel. We've put significant funding into that—£60 million over three years. And I'd be very interested—again, it's not within my portfolio, but I'd be very interested to see the monitoring that's being done around active travel and how local authorities are ensuring that it's safer for people to cycle and walk. And, again, within my own constituency, I've seen cycle paths that just finish—that's not acceptable, and we need to make sure that our monitoring is robust and that local authorities are coming forward with this form of—. Well, they're not a form of transport, but they're making it easier for people to put the car to one side. And I know more people use buses than rail, but I think it's important, the steps we're taking in relation to rail, and certainly Transport for Wales are investing in new, cleaner rolling stock, and also, obviously, we'll have the south Wales metro and the north Wales metro, which will hopefully be coming to fruition over the next few years.

Joyce Watson AC: And the last speaker, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you. I do welcome the statement today, and I only have one question. I note that back in 1854, a young doctor called John Snow, who worked in Soho in London at the height of a cholera epidemic, plotted on a map with dots exactly where the cholera outbreak was going, and using that evidence actually dealt with a cholera outbreak that was linked to one contaminated sewage pipe that was close to a septic tank and so on. We have the evidence clearly now of the catastrophic impact this is having on shortening young lives, on the proximity to schools and other places, so we do need to act. So, I do welcome it today.
My question is as simple as this: I have huge faith in the Minister, in bringing forward her action plan, that it will have the degree of granularity as well as ambition that will help to make the changes we need to avoid this being the cholera epidemic of our age, across the whole of the UK and western society, but here in Wales particularly. But the reason it's been driven so hard over the last decade is because of groups like ClientEarth and others, who have been able to bring actions against UK Government. Andrew R.T. Davies said how well the UK Government is doing—the reason that they've upped their ante is because ClientEarth have now said to them, 'We will take you back and back and back and back to court', and they've upped the ante on a strategy. Can we have that guarantee, going forward, now and in a post-Brexit scenario, that citizens or citizens' organisations can hold Governments to account to ensure, if that Minister was not there, and some Minister lacking the ambition or lacking the ability to deliver wasn't doing it, that citizens could hold Government accountable—take them to court, sue them and force their hand to deal with this epidemic, now, that is right across the UK?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Just to answer your specific point: it's absolutely vital that there is a body that residents and individuals and citizens of Wales can go to if they wish to do that.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you.

5. Statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government: The Working group on Local Government - next steps

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you. I'm going to move on now to item 5, a statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government: the working group on local government—next steps. I call on the Minister to open.

Julie James AC: Thank you, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. I apologise for my craggy-sounding voice today.
Today I would like to update Members on the recommendations of the working group on local government. I would also like to set out the next steps following the conclusion of this work.
The working group was created by my predecessor as part of an agreement between Welsh Government and local government to design and define together the future of local government in Wales. Its core task was to develop a shared agenda for reform that ensures the sustainability of local service provision through appropriate structures and processes, whether collaboration, shared services or voluntary mergers. The working group was also an opportunity for us to reset our relationship with local government, to explore and recognise the significant positive, collaborative work local authorities already do, and how collectively we can simplify arrangements to achieve a more sustainable local government sector in Wales.
Our meetings have been both challenging and positive. Significant progress has been made on issues of importance to us all. I'm very grateful to the Welsh Local Government Association and to local government leaders for approaching the meetings and this work with an open mind and a desire to agree workable solutions to complex issues.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Julie James AC: I must also thank and congratulate Derek Vaughan on his fair and inclusive chairing of the meetings. Derek’s commitment to this group and his belief in what could be achieved were fundamental to the group’s progress. I was very pleased to see that he received the CBE in the Queen’s birthday honours this month for his contribution to political and public service, which is well deserved.
Today I am publishing the recommendations of the working group, which cover a number of areas including shared services, voluntary mergers, powers and flexibilities, diversity in local government, and the mutual respect agenda. There was much constructive debate between all members and I was pleased the group was able to quickly agree a clear set of shared principles to underpin discussions and any future delivery of regional working.
The principles place regional working firmly within a framework of democratic control and accountability, with sustainability at its core and a focus on delivering better public service outcomes for citizens and communities. It was clear from the conversations within the working group, and mapping work undertaken by local government, that there is already a significant amount of collaborative partnership working on both a voluntary and statutory basis throughout Wales. I welcome and applaud this.
However, there was also a recognition within the working group that this landscape was complex, and that this complexity was potentially limiting the effectiveness and efficiency of these arrangements. I am intent on working with my Cabinet colleagues to find ways to reduce some of the complexity surrounding partnership working in Wales.
Through the working group, and other meetings that I have had with leaders, local government has also underlined the need for greater consistency in our approach to partnership. I am committed to seek simplification wherever possible. Following discussions at the working group, the WLGA leader and I have commissioned a joint review of the strategic partnership landscape to identify the key areas where there is felt to be unnecessary complexity or duplication and to identify opportunities for simplification and rationalisation. This review will report to the partnership council in October of this year.
A key recommendation of the working group was the need for more consistent mechanisms and structures to support regional working and collaboration. Considerable time and effort is absorbed in creating and recreating the practical working arrangements for joint working; for example, which authority will lead on the finance, which authority will be the employer? Members of the working group agreed that a single structure for statutory and voluntary arrangements would retain local democratic accountability and deliver consistency and simplification to collaborative arrangements.
The local government and elections (Wales) Bill, due for introduction to this Assembly later this year, provides the opportunity to deliver a single consistent, simplified and straightforward vehicle for democratically accountable regional working. I intend to include in the Bill powers to enable the creation of a new form of joint working vehicle—currently referred to as a statutory joint committee—which will be the blueprint design for local authorities working together. This will remove set-up costs associated with the setting up of multiple duplicatory arrangements and enable authorities to maximise the opportunities that working together present. This new form of joint working vehicle will be a body corporate, capable of employing staff and holding assets and funding.
Local authorities will be able to request the establishment of such a body where they wish to work together on the basis of shared interests and mutual benefit. This can be in relation to any service that local authorities believe can be delivered more efficiently and effectively in this way. I also propose that Welsh Ministers will be able to require local authority functions to be delivered regionally in this way for certain service areas. Our intention is to focus on those areas where the Welsh Government has already put in place regional arrangements—either statutory or voluntary—or where provision to make regional arrangements already exists.
The Welsh Ministers would be able to establish bodies in these service areas, where doing so would provide a more effective, efficient and beneficial way of carrying out these functions. This would mean the potential establishment in service areas such as planning, transport and economic development. The democratic accountability and transparency that these new statutory arrangements will bring are essential for any joint working, but particularly for services and activities that directly impact on citizens' lives.
In support of this, I am pleased that the WLGA will also co-ordinate the development of a code of collaborative practice for adoption by all local authorities. The code will provide clear principles for wider regional working with clarity of expectation on where regional working is important, and what local authorities can expect of each other when considering new, or managing existing, joint arrangements. I am also pleased to say that I am committed to supporting, through the WLGA, a new improvement and support function, recommended by the working group, which I believe will provide positive support to authorities to deliver the innovation and service transformation needed for the future of our citizens and communities.
I have agreed with local governmentthat a new sub-group of the Partnership Council for Wales will be created, which will take forward some of the key recommendations of the working group. This sub-group will adopt the principles which made the working group so successful—mutual respect and a shared agenda to deliver the best outcomes possible for the people of Wales. Diolch.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you very much for your statement. As you say, the working group was established to design and deliver together the future of local government in Wales. I love the term 'design and deliver together' because that's co-production. I consulted some colleagues in local government for their take on that. You'll be pleased that one of them came back to me stating that the working group has been very productive. There'll be nothing, he said, in your statement that will frighten colleagues in local government. He's not at liberty to share the outcomes of the work to date, but can share that it's likely that a sub-group of the partnership council will continue the work that was started throughout the summer months, and, of course, this reflects the working group's first recommendation.
However, would you please address a concern raised with me in another response from a colleague in local government, quote, that there seems to be a continual obsession with playing around with local government—can we be left to get on with what we know needs delivering for our residents and Welsh Government can get on with what they should be doing?
I think the two responses reflect the continuing concerns, perhaps: positive will to engage, but concern that this might get in the way, based on previous reviews and proposed legislation on doing things better.
You say in your statement that the group agreed a clear set of shared principles to underpin discussions and any future delivery of regional working, placing regional working firmly within a framework of democratic control and accountability. How do you envisage that might work where different local authorities have different council chambers, with different sets of elected leaderships and elected members, each of whom will be seeking to hold to account and to scrutinise the workings of potentially shared regional bodies, and possibly having different agendas between different councils, and even groups within councils, accordingly?
You say it was clear that there is already a significant amount of collaborative partnership working on both a voluntary and statutory basis throughout Wales. When we took evidence successively on previous Welsh Government proposals in the last Assembly for the future of local government, the Welsh Local Government Association and council representatives, officers and elected members emphasised to us that they are obliged to carry out a cost-benefit analysis when proposing regional working or working together with anybody on any project, as with anything else, and then presenting the findings of that analysis to full council for them to decide whether to go ahead or not. Of course, the Welsh Government itself doesn't have to do that when it's proposing changes in local government, so how will you factor that in? It was a major concern when some of your predecessors appeared not to do so. I'm sure you would, but, again, how you would you factor in that past concern of theirs?
You state that, following discussions at the working group, the WLGA leader and you have commissioned a joint review of the strategic partnership landscape to identify the key areas where it's felt to be unnecessary, and complexity or duplication—. And this will report to the partnership council in October. How, then, will you be sharing the findings with the full Assembly? What timescales and what role do you envisage the Assembly having regarding that?
You state, or you refer to, the creation of a joint working vehicle, currently referred to as a statutory joint committee—the blueprint design for local authorities working together. How will that work with and avoid replication of the work of regional partnership boards, which were meant to be a new way of regional working across public services that would be mandatory and systematic and drive the strategic regional delivery of social services in close collaboration with health, but also public services boards for each local authority, designed to improve the economic, local, environmental and cultural well-being of their areas, engaging with all public bodies and communities? So, are you proposing to replace those bodies, or is this going to be another tier, with potentially the same people sitting around a different table discussing very similar and overarching issues?
You state that you propose that Welsh Ministers should be able to require local authority functions to be delivered regionally in certain areas and that this would mean the potential establishment in service areas such as planning transport and economic development. How will that reconcile with bodies such as the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, the north Wales growth board, as it goes forward with the response to its growth bid from both Governments, hopefully later this year, where they themselves—and of course you have the city deals in Cardiff and Swansea as well—have their own asks in terms of control and executive power in some of those areas on a shared regional basis already together? You say the WLGA will co-ordinate the development of a code of collaborative practice. Will that be mandatory and how will it be enforced or will it be entirely a voluntary code?
If I can conclude by asking the obvious question about third sector representation, we know that Age Alliance Wales has continued to raise concerns about third sector representation on regional partnership boards, feeling excluded, feeling not fully engaged, and they've repeated that again very recently. We've had feedback from, for instance, the Wales Neurological Alliance that people with neurological conditions are not being signposted to services or given a voice under existing Welsh legislation.
Only yesterday, I and my colleague Darren Millar attended an event in north Wales, the shared lives scheme, something that I know the Welsh Government is keen to support. We heard from representatives from Gwynedd and Anglesey through to north-east Wales, and the key point they made was not only is this good very much for individuals but it's good for councils and health boards that want to save money. They said that it costs less than other forms of care—an average of £26,000 a year cheaper for people, for instance, with learning disabilities, and people have much better quality of life than other kinds of care.
So, how will this—finally—new body finally break through that wall, which is generating continued concerns from third sector providers, that, despite Welsh Government legislation and intent, they're still on the outside?

Julie James AC: Thank you for that series of questions. I think there were 24, so, I'll do my best to answer them.
This proposal has been developed, I cannot emphasise enough, completely co-productively with local government. This is not something that the Welsh Government is proposing to do to local government, it is something we are doing together. It comes out of the working group. The working group worked very effectively, because, as I said in my statement, it's widely accepted throughout the local government landscape that the current system is complex and has potential for duplication, is very non transparent to the citizen who's looking to see how their services are delivered. So, what we're doing is putting in a simplified vehicle that would allow local authorities permissive power—with one or two exceptions, but it's a permissive power that allows local government to come together in a particular format, which they currently don't have access to. We will enable that access through the Bill, which is a committee that has a legal entity in its own right, which is formed of the leaders of the local authorities that collaborate together. So, it's a very simple democratic mechanism. The local authorities will be expected to delegate the powers to that committee that it wants to do regionally in that way, and then that committee can set up any structure it likes underneath that, with any co-option, anybody it wants. We're not in any way—. We're not imposing our will in any way on that; it's entirely a matter for the local authorities that come together to do that piece of regional work.
We're doing that because that does allow things like the North Wales Economic Ambition Board to morph into that structure. It will certainly allow the Cardiff city deal arrangements to morph into that structure. It allows third sector representation. It allows co-option of anybody who is a working partner for local authorities in delivering the services that they're delivering.
You asked specifically about the regional planning boards. We haven't specifically included them as mandatory or anything else on the face of the Bill, but it will be a vehicle that is open to local authorities and health boards. We didn't have the time to do the policy work to put it onto the face of the Bill, but, in collaboration with local authoritiesand health boards—and the health Minister and I have had initial conversations about this—we will be looking to see whether we think it would be beneficial, because you correctly identify that, at the moment, some local authorities feel that they sit in the same meeting and only two people change every couple of hours. And we really want to make sure that people are using their time and money in the most effective and efficient way possible.
There will be three areas that we want to explore with local government over the summer. The first of those is in the area of transport, where there's already been a White Paper talking about joint transport authorities. And, rather than layer a different regional arrangement on, we're looking to put that into this arrangement. The Planning (Wales) Act 2015 already has strategic planning arrangements in it. We will put those into this arrangement. And we really would like to put economic development and land use for the development of social housing into this arrangement. That would have three benefits, it seems to us: one is it would allow the collaborative use of land across Wales in order to get the best out of the possibilities for social house building, which we want to do at pace and scale. The second is it would allow people to share scarce human resources. It's very difficult to get hold of all of the skills necessary to build at pace and scale in every area of Wales, so it would allow us to pool those scarce human resources. And third is that it would allow pooled budgets. In introducing this vehicle in the Act, we will be introducing a new performance framework to go with it that will cover off the issue around the cost-benefit analysis and what needs to take place in order to do that and, in collaboration, again, with the WLGA, we will produce the guidance that local authorities will be expected to adhere to when they enter into, or indeed remove themselves from, such an arrangement. But I cannot emphasise enough, Llywydd, that this is done collaboratively with local government. It is something that they want as much as we want, and it will simplify for the citizen of Wales the way in which their services are delivered.

Dai Lloyd AC: Can I thank the Minister for her statement on the working group on local government? Now, obviously, 22 local authorities were created back in 1996 and they hardly had any time to bed in before the fledgling National Assembly for Wales came along in 1999, and sometimes I think we're still reaping that harvest, really, because I don't think we've ever really got to grips with the conversation about who does what as regards the delivery of services in Wales as a result of that 1996/1999 situation. And the challenge of how to organise services—what needs to be done nationally, what needs to be done regionally and what needs to be done locally, that challenge to service organisation— remains. And people are always saying, 'Well, Wales is only 8,000 square miles, 3 million people, come on, people, surely we can organise something without tears, lots of partnerships and the rest.'
Now, I noticed the creation of a new sub-group here, and you mentioned quite broadly in your speech there the work that's going on. Could I ask you to elaborate a bit on the work, more broadly, in how we seriously consider delivering public services across the board in Wales, that national, regional, local thing—about the whole of public services, not just about local government, now, wider than local government, yes, all of local government, but also health, social care, housing, transport, economic development, which you mentioned, and how you see that happening? Because that's what needs to happen, regardless of—. I'm not going to have the 'lines on maps' conversation, but we need to have a mature debate about how we deliver public services to 3 million people in 8,000 square miles. It's done in other places without the degree of complexity that we have now, which is partly historic, but obviously sometimes you just have to grasp the bull by the horns and actually go for it in terms of properly co-ordinated delivery of services, which you do mention, and I'm wondering if you could expand on that, because obviously the point about democratic scrutiny is all-important and sometimes what gets lost now when we talk sometimes a bit loosely about regional planning is where the democratic scrutiny comes in, then, because people are only elected to their local authority, not to a regional board, as such.
And, more specifically, my only other question is in regard to enabling local authorities—the power to create a new form of joint working that you outlined, a new joint-working vehicle, a new body corporate, if you like. Will this be extended to allowing local authorities to establish jointly between them a non-profit service provider, where local authorities jointly can provide better services, rather than them just setting up non-profits individually? I would hope that they could work together, public services, and jointly provide better services, but I await your answer. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you for that. You've absolutely hit the nail on the head; I think there is no reason at all why we can't deliver public services in Wales as a single all-Wales public service approach. We're going down a road of discussing that with local government in this instance, but also we've had discussions with the health boards. I was very upfront in saying to Mark Isherwood, and I'll say it again: we have not had the policy time to bring health into this straightaway, but we will look, as we take the Bill through the Assembly, and through the scrutiny of the Assembly committees, to have that discussion and to leave the pathway open for health if that is something that health and local government, working together in the regional partnership boards, think would be beneficial. We think they will think that, but we are not—I cannot emphasise enough that we are not imposing this.
I completely agree with you about the scrutiny issue. So, again, we will not be being prescriptive in the Bill; we will be looking to co-produce with local government scrutiny guidance. We hope to be able to share the good practice of scrutiny across Wales. The regional arrangements—they can have regional scrutiny if they want. They can also have individual local government scrutiny if they want, or I would envisage, actually, a combination of the two, but we are not being restrictive in any way about that. What we want to see is what works best.
The new performance regime that will go alongside this in the forthcoming local government Bill, as it's introduced to the Assembly, we hope, in October, will also have the new arrangements for local authority elections in it and, Llywydd, my officials have been working very hard on the Senedd bit of that, but this is the other bit of it. So, the Bill will have two big parts; part 1 will be the change of the franchise for local government, with all of the complexity that goes alongside of that around the canvass and all the rest of it, and then the second part of it will be these new arrangements and a whole new performance regime. We will, effectively, be repealing the 2009 Measure and replacing that with a new self-improvement peer review regime, which will have a whole series of both statutory and non-statutory guidance associated with it in order to simplify the mechanism by which we do this.
I could not agree more that what we have is a historical layering on of various arrangements, without anyone ever thinking, 'Goodness, this is not how you would do it if you started again'. So, this is local government coming up with this start again, if you like, process. I cannot emphasise enough how collaborative and well intentioned this whole working group has been. It has been a pleasure to attend, and people have approached it in the spirit that Dai Lloyd set out in his contribution. So, I very much look forward to taking the Bill through the Assembly, and being able to have the in-depth conversation in the scrutiny committees and on the floor of the Chamber as we take it through.
And I neglected to say to Mark Isherwood, in response to one of his questions, I've just realised as well, that, on that issue about scrutiny, we'll be very keen to see what the Assembly committees have to say about their role in scrutinising the Welsh Government's role in this sort of collaborative working.

Mike Hedges AC: Firstly, can I just say to Dai Lloyd, if we hadn't had reorganisation and the merger of district and country councils, we wouldn't have had the Assembly? That made a huge difference, because it would have added another layer of government, and, if you look at how close the election result was, it wouldn't have happened.
I want to talk about local government—I always want to talk about local government. I believe local government is very important. It provides services to people across Wales, and the services it provides are normally of a very high standard and always appreciated by the residents. And, when things go wrong, they don't half tell us as Assembly Members, and they tell the local councillors.
But I think it's very important that I welcome the statement and it gives an opportunity for us to reset our relationship with local government, to explore and recognise the significant positive collaboration and work local authorities already do. That might come as a surprise to local government, because they've not been used to people saying nice things about them in this Chamber from the front bench for several years. And I think it really is important that we do appreciate the work done by local authorities.
Can I just say about shared services, which I think are an excellent idea—and I belonged to one that existed in the past, the south west Wales integrated transport consortium? But I think it's important that they actually take place in understandable areas, so each city region has all the services taking part not necessarily across the city region, but within the city region, and those in mid and west Wales take part in mid and west Wales. The great weakness in Swansea is that they don't know who's going to turn up for the next meeting, because sometimes it was Ceredigion, sometimes it was Ceredigion and Powys, sometimes they are with Bridgend. It does create difficulty in collaborative working when you're collaborating with different people depending on what service you're talking about. So, if everything can be done in one footprint—and I've argued this several times before so I'll keep on arguing it—then people get used to it and the relationships build up and people get used to dealing with it in that manner.
I think statutory joint committees are an excellent idea. I think of economic development, and the development of Swansea University in Neath Port Talbot council area has probably had more of an effect on Swansea, on Swansea East in particular, than it has on Neath Port Talbot. I remember the old Lliw Valley Borough Council setting up Clydach market, which was actually in Lliw Valley but the houses opposite were in Swansea and the people who were most affected where the people in Swansea. So, I think it is important that we get some collaboration because some of the out-of-town shopping areas—. I mean, Trostre effects Swansea and Fforestfach affects Llanelli. This is the inevitability with places that are so close together with good road links.
The only other question I've got is: how will it differ, if at all, from the joint committee in Northern Ireland, which was made up of the participant councils and constituted as a body corporate?

Julie James AC: Well, the very simple answer to the last question is, 'Not at all.' So, basically it's a joint committee like any other, except that it's a body corporate in its own right. The reason that that's important is because it means it can directly employ staff and have its own budget, and it's a legal entity in its own right. So, when an authority delegates its functions to a joint committee that is enabled in that way, it means that the citizen knows that that is the body that's responsible for delivering it and if, for example, you wanted to sue that authority for not delivering your individual rights, that would be the body corporate that you had the rights enforced against. So, it's a much simpler landscape than we have already.
I share Mike Hedges's feelings about local government. I too am a big fan of local government. He and I worked together in one local authority for a very long time. Local government is very good at making the best out of poor structures and processes and continuing to deliver its services in the face of what can be unnecessary hurdles. The whole purpose of this working group has to be to remove those unnecessary hurdles. It's clear that authorities across Wales have an economic impact, one on the other. In education terms, for example, the boundary of the local authority would appear to be an impenetrable forcefield for some schools' catchment areas, and that makes absolutely no sense at all in terms of what the local school might look like and so on. We've had lots of conversations with people. Kirsty Williams and I have had several conversations with people about having a more sensible approach to infrastructure planning around new housing developments and so on for exactly that reason.
One thing I don't agree with Mike Hedges on is the single footprint issue. We will be talking to the authorities about the three areas that we want to form a statutory joint committee in and, as I said, those are the joint transport arrangements, the strategic plan arrangements and economic development/building of social housing—the pooling of land, effectively, for the building of social housing. But, otherwise, this is permissive. So, the local authorities can make whatever arrangement they want, but because we're doing it through the working group, the working group has done a map of what exists and what doesn't exist, and it makes no sense to overlap them. So, local authorities themselves will be the masters of their own fortune in that regard. They will be the ones who either enter or don't enter into an arrangement of different overlapping or otherwise committees. But it doesn't seem sensible to me that you would make five where one would do. So, we think that they will have that conversation amongst themselves and come to that conclusion.
So, it goes alongside the new performance regime, which will drive regional working. We will expect a local authority to consider regional working in planning its services, why that isn't a strategic necessity and what it might get in efficiency and effectiveness in doing so, and then we will require them to consider how they might best deliver that. But there will be no requirement to set up a particular vehicle; it is entirely permissive.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister, and I also thank you for providing us with an advance copy of the working group's recommendations. While it's clear that much work has been done on setting the agenda for reform, there has been, actually, very little reform. Minister, do you accept that the current model for local government is unsustainable, and considering the state of public finances, we need reform sooner rather than later?
A new sub-committee is being set up within the partnership council. So, when will you be able to share the full remit of the sub-group, and, more importantly, what, if any, will the timescales be that they will work to? If you accept the premise that there are far too many local authorities doing things differently, which it appears that you do, given the drive to create greater regional working, then you must accept the urgency for change given the cuts to essential services and rising council tax bills.
The public, our residents, are concerned about what they get for their money. When they pay their council tax, what are they getting back? So, Minister, how do you answer the allegations that this is simply a re-imaging of the old county council system and that this will not lead to better public services and savings for taxpayers?
The public, our constituents, demand a greater pace of change. This has been talked about now for nearly two decades, and we're still not much closer to reform. So, Minister, when will we actually see change in local government? What is the timescale? We need action now rather than words. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Well, I don't agree with the basic premise of Caroline Jones's submission there. I'm not looking to reduce the number of principal authorities in Wales. We're specifically not doing that. There will be provision in the Bill for voluntary mergers, where local authorities feel that they want to come together, but there will be no mandatory merging of local authorities. Instead, as I said, we will be looking to have a systematic approach to regional working, developed in line with local government through the sub-group, the terms of reference for which were agreed at the partnership council. I'm more than happy to circulate the terms of reference if Members are interested, but they are to look again at the regional working arrangements for local government. The first report of that group will come back by October and will be used by us to inform the debate for Stage 1 of the Bill as it goes into the Senedd. We very much hope, with the Llywydd's permission, to introduce that Bill in October in order to make the election timetable that she will certainly be aware of, and at the moment we're on target to do that. Then, as we take that through, we will be referencing the new sub-group, the working arrangements and the scrutiny of our committees here to make sure that we take forward a collaborative approach to a new system of working for local government.

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Education: Adult Learners Week

The next item, therefore, is the statement by the Minister for Education on Adult Learners Week, and I call on the Minister for Education to make her statement. Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Adult Learners Week is an annual campaign co-ordinated by the Learning and Work Institute in partnership with Welsh Government. Each year, we see over 10,000 adults in Wales participating in Adult Learners Week activities. The campaign raises awareness of the value of adult learning, celebrates the achievements of learners and providers, and inspires more people to discover how learning can positively change their lives. I intend to use my statement today to highlight what we as a Government are doing all year round in that spirit of Adult Learners Week.
Members will be aware that in my progressive agreement with the First Minister, we committed to exploring how we can deliver a new Welsh right to lifelong learning. Work is under way within Government and with the adult learning sector on how we take this forward. I’m very grateful to the Learning and Work Institute for hosting a recent seminar on the issue, and I've asked HEFCW to promote and challenge the role of universities with regard to place-based adult, community and lifelong education.
I attended the Inspire! adult learner of the year awards on 5 June, and want to, once again, congratulate Andrea Garvey, who won this year’s Inspire! adult learner of the year award. These awards are the launching platform for Adult Learners Week, and I was awestruck by the dedication, the resilience and the bravery of the learners that I met. Their attitude to learning, their determination to reach for a better life and their sheer strength of character was astonishing. I draw a parallel with the purposes of our new school curriculum—to develop enterprising, engaged and ambitious citizens and learners. And it is equally valid to view these as the purposes for learning that is lifelong.
If we are to succeed in making Wales the strong, confident nation that we are striving for, then we must invest in people throughout their lives. Our adult learning policy rightly prioritises essential skills, and we offer this provision in the heart of our communities where our learners feel safe and secure. But we cannot disregard the huge numbers of people who need to reskill or upskill. We cannot afford to allow people to languish at the bottom of the ladder because we haven't given them the opportunity to climb right up it. That's why I'm pleased that our community learning and employability programmes support our most vulnerable adults. We deliver essential skills, qualifications and work preparation training to support people to overcome barriers to entering employment, whilst reskilling and upskilling working and unemployed learners.
Our new Working Wales employability advice service is now operating and it makes it easier for people to access professional careers advice and support to access education, employment or training. In the autumn, we will begin a two-year pilot for our personal learning accounts that aim to support adults who are in low-paid or low-skilled employment to gain the skills and qualifications needed to either switch careers or progress to a higher level in their existing employment. Presiding Officer, there is no single definition of adult learning. It encompasses learning at every level, from pre-entry to degree, and takes place in a variety of venues, from community centres to our universities. I am committed to widening access to further and higher education, ensuring that any learner with the potential to benefit from education post 16 has the opportunity to undertake it.
This evening, I will be attending a reception to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the Open University. Since the OU first opened its doors in 1969, over 200,000 students in Wales have studied with them. The OU delivers distance-learning opportunities to around 9,000 people in Wales each year, making it the largest provider of part-time higher education in the country. And it is the global university that is also everyone's local university. I'm really excited that the Open University has been contracted to develop our new teacher education programmes that will widen participation in teaching. These new routes into teaching will break down barriers, delivering a whole new generation of teachers from different backgrounds, improving the learning experience of pupils in our schools, and, crucially, increasing the diversity of our teaching workforce.
Of course, flexible part-time distance learning makes a significant economic, societal and individual contribution and our reforms to student finance has seen the OU reporting an increase in applications of almost 50 per cent, and an increase of more than a third in the number of part-time undergraduates receiving student support. About half of the part-time students that we are supporting financially this year will receive the maximum level of maintenance grant and this makes all the difference for students who have other financial commitments in their lives. I would remind Members that Wales is the only country in Europe to deliver equivalent maintenance support in loans and grants across modes and levels of study. I will be making a further announcement on postgraduate incentives and support for older learners very soon.
This week also marks Refugee Week, and on Thursday, along with the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, I will launch the ReStart refugee integration project. This initiative will offer a one-stop shop for refugees who are settled in Wales and will provide support and advice on a variety of issues, including education and English for speakers of other languages provision.
Campaigns like Adult Learners Week are vital. This week is a celebration; a celebration of all aspects of adult learning, and will provide people with the opportunity to try something new with a host of activities taking place across our nation. The importance of engaging in learning, at every level, can never be underestimated. Engaging in an activity during Adult Learners Week can be that critical first step back into learning and onto a path to create a new and better life, and I would encourage everyone to get involved. Diolch yn fawr.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for her statement today, and I join her in congratulating Andrea Garvey. The aim of Adult Learners Week is to raise awareness of the value of adult learning, celebrate the achievements of learners and providers, and inspire more people to discover how learning can positively change their lives. The fact is, adult learning is key to a forward-thinking and diverse economy for the future. It provides Wales's workforce with the ability to gain new skills and knowledge to improve employment outcomes. It is therefore imperative that adults are encouraged to participate in learning at any stage of their career, whether it is through in-work learning or personal study.
Despite social and economic benefits, over the years, the number of people enrolled in adult community learning has declined significantly. Adult learning has long faced the brunt of Welsh Labour Government cuts, which have hindered the sector's ability to provide flexible, consistent and accessible courses, contributing to the decline in those enrolled. It is only right that the Welsh Government commits fully to prioritising this marginalised sector, to ensure Wales can offer a consistent high standard of adult learning opportunities across all parts of Wales—north, east, south and west.
The main challenges faced by adult learners are how to balance work and family commitments together with financial barriers. So, I ask the Minister: what support does Careers Wales provide to adults seeking to take up educational opportunities? How can Careers Wales be better utilised to provide more tailored support and advice to adults seeking to further their careers, as well as to young people?
In 2016, Estyn's report on adult community learning provision stated:
'In most ACL partnerships, financial reductions have had a significant impact on provision and staffing levels.'
Since the publication of that report, what action has the Welsh Government taken to ensure that adult learning providers receive the funding and support they clearly need?
Finally, Minister, in 2017, the Welsh Government adult learning in Wales policy document stated—as a matter of fact, you stated—and quote:
'We will fund the provision of Essential Digital Literacy Skills up to Level 2'.
And you continue to say:
'We will continue to support the delivery Essential Employability Skills up to Level 2'.
Have you undertaken any impact assessment to determine how effective the support for such qualifications has been? What assessment has been made of what more needs to be done to help adults who are learning new qualifications to achieve higher qualifications in Wales? And also, this area needs people with disabilities, some other issues, ethnic minorities, LGBT and especially gender balance in this field. It's desperately needed to improve this sector. Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I thank the Member for his recognition of the importance of adult learning and the real impact that that has on individuals and on wider society? I think, Presiding Officer, I did mention in my statement that the new Working Wales employability advice service is now up and running. The purpose of this new service is to provide and respond to the very issues that the Member raised, in ensuring that adults have access to professional careers advice that can help them access adult learning, work-based learning, extra training opportunities, to help them reach their goals.
I also recognise—. And the Member asked what more we're doing. I did mention in my statement that in the autumn we will have a new pilot of personalised learning accounts. Those are specifically for people who are in work. Often, our employability plans have focused on those—understandably, quite rightly—the furthest away from employment, but actually we do know that there are people in work who need the opportunities to upskill and reskill, and the pilot will be a valuable intervention for those particular workers.
With regard to funding for part-time, the Member is not wrong. Given the impact of austerity, difficult decisions have had to be made, and it is not unreasonable that previous decisions focused on providing full-time opportunities for our youngest people. It's a tough choice to make, but I think that there is certainly a logic in prioritising those learners. What we are doing, where we can, given the difficult financial situation we still find ourselves in, is to be able to find innovative ways to support adult learning in the round. So, for instance, we have introduced a new part-time funding methodology that protects the provision of ESOL, basic skills and GCSE resits, but also allocates the remainder of that funding on a population data level across all colleges. Therefore, in addressing this issue, wherever you are in Wales, we are looking to re-engage part-time provision, which in the past has been too patchy. We are putting in transitional arrangements in this financial year to make sure that no individual college loses out. But, the result of this reform will mean that access to part-time FE will be much more equitable than it has been previously.

Bethan Sayed AC: I think it’s important that we all acknowledge the importance of Adult Learners Week, and, as has been done already, to thank everyone in the sector who is working so hard and diligently in this field. I acknowledge that it’s a very important thing, as part of our society, that people can learn, whatever age they are and whatever subject they might be studying, be it to do with reskillingor whether it’s in the context of them just wanting to learn something new at a different time in their life. I think that’s what’s important—that we recognise learning for its own sake, rather than learning in order to get some sort of qualification at the end.
I have a series of questions. Certainly, this week, we have heard that 180 posts are at risk at Allied Bakeries. We've certainly heard that posts are at risk in Ford in Bridgend. That, then, is going to have an impact on the education system, because a number of those people who are working in these sectors are going to need to develop new skills and to find new jobs. Last year, we heard the Future Advocacy think tank suggesting that one in three posts in Wales are at risk as a result of automation by the early 2030s, and Alun and Deeside is the most vulnerable constituency and will see the greatest impact in that regard. So, considering the economic impact and considering some of the factors related to automation, could you tell us whether you have seriously considered these forecasts? What provision can you make to upskill and reskill those people who are going to be requiring that? And, how are you going to include that within the adult learners’ system? Following on from that, what discussions have you had with the Minister for the economy to mitigate the impact of the development of automation on our employees, and the impact that that will have on opportunities within the specific sectors that I have already mentioned?
A number of us have received e-mails from Age Cymru and you've said that you are going to be making a specific statement on older people, so thank you very much for that. But we have received an e-mail from Age Cymru to say that lifelong learning and the opportunity to take part in educational activities is important to a number of older people to develop new skills and knowledge. We have heard from the Bevan Foundation that only one in 20 learners in lifelong learning are 65 years of age and above. The location of courses, the accessibility of facilities, the lack of range of courses and a lack of advertising, specifically advertising that isn't on the web, are impacting that age group’s ability to engage with education in the way that they would like. So, what’s your assessment of lifelong learning as a well-being tool, as well as it being an opportunity to develop skills for employability? How is the Welsh Government supporting the development of resources to ensure that lifelong learning is seen as a tool to deal with life stages, including loneliness, retirements and experiences such as grief and so on? What discussions have you had with the local government Minister to improve mobility and accessibility in libraries and other education centres, for example, to ensure that accessibility isn't a barrier?
The third element, as you've already heard from the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, I believe, is on the regional skills partnerships. FE colleges and people in that sector have told me that there are some difficulties with the regional skills partnerships and the suggestions that are made to them. There is evidence from that sector that suggests that there is a gap between what the partnership and the Government expect them to do and what is realistic for them to do on the ground, and perhaps they're too detailed and prescriptive with regard to what is being asked of them. So, I acknowledge that we do need to give some sort of steer for Government spending, but is there a way to be more flexible with what is happening on the ground in terms of the courses that are being provided, so that they're a response to what people want to do, but also a response to what the economy requires and what we require as a nation as well?

Bethan Sayed AC: I was in a meeting with some veterans yesterday and they mentioned to me the fact that, when they come out of the armed forces, quite often their transferrable skills are not recognised, so they may have specific skills in engineering and such, but it's not recognised if they need to go into an entirely different work landscape, and they end up on benefits, or they end up homeless, actually, because they haven't really found a place that they can go to try and change that reality for themselves, and to get a job in something that would suit them. But they're not being told how they can transfer those skills. I'm wondering what work you can do through the adult education sector to help those veterans to realise their potential so that they're not in those vulnerable positions.
My final question was—you will be aware of the Augar review and the fact that they're doing this learning through life concept, and you will be responding to that, I know. You've mentioned earlier the personal learning accounts. I just wanted to understand whether that was the same thing, or whether it was something that you're working in conjunction with the UK Government on, because I've had conversations with the Open University especially who are very interested in the expansion of that type of thing, where, if you're working in a position and you've managed to do quite well but you haven't got a degree, or another person is in a position where they want to do extra qualifications and they can't get financial support to do that, how are we facilitating their ability to do that when they're in full-time work and when they need that support. So, anything that you've got to add to what you said to the previous question from Mohammad Asghar would be very helpful, thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Could I thank Bethan Sayed for, once again, her recognition of the hard work that is going on the length and breadth of Wales in this important field, and also to recognise that informal, non-accredited learning is often the very first step that some people need to undertake before they move on to a more formal accredited learning? So sometimes we can be perhaps overly dismissive of what seems mostly a social activity, but actually that can be often the crucial hook to get somebody building their confidence, building their self-esteem, reconnecting with learning, especially for those people for whom perhaps school, and their first opportunity of learning, has not been a positive experience. So like you, I think we should recognise the role that informal, non-accredited opportunities can play. It is important.
The Member asked whether I have meetings with my colleague Ken Skates with regard to the impact of automation. The Government is very alive to the threats but also the opportunities of automation. Undoubtedly we need to be in a position that the Welsh workforce is skilled to take advantage. Every time we've seen an industrial revolution or a big step forward in the world of work, naturally there's a great fear about the negative impact, but there are also opportunities, and we need to be alive to where the future employment opportunities are going to be, and to ensure that our workforce has the skills and the aptitudes to be able to switch andto be able to move into those new opportunities should they become available. The Government has commissioned a specific piece of work to look at the potential impact of automation on the Welsh economy and what we will need to do to respond to any new opportunities that will arise out of that.
The Member recognised that, in my statement, I said that I would be making an announcement with regard to older learners shortly, and I am due to meet with the older person's commissioner on Thursday of this week to talk about these important issues for our older citizens. Having recently visited a class in Merthyr Tydfil that was frequented—. I think their oldest learner was in her 90s. She left me in no doubt of the importance of continued availability of that particular opportunity. It certainly was delivering all sorts of benefits to her in terms of combating social isolation, making sure she had an opportunity to engage with like-minded people on a subject that was really important for her, and, again, we want to make sure, as we develop our Welsh right to lifelong learning, that we encompass our older citizens in that.
The regional skills partnership is an increasingly important way in which we can align our education and training provision with the needs of our economy. Sometimes, there can be a tension between what people want to study and learn about and actually what qualifications they need to be able to gain gainful employment. The Member will be aware that we have set aside an amount of money for FE colleges to be able to respond proactively and positively to the request of our regional skills partnership, but we recognise that sometimes there is the need for flexibility on an institution-to-institution basis. We're alive to that. But my call to our colleagues in FE, which I delivered in a speech at their conference just last week, is the need to work collaboratively with our regional skills partnership so that our learners, at whatever age, are able to take advantage of training opportunities and learning opportunities that are going to be meaningful in the context of employment in their area. Because most learners want to be able to use those skills to be able to work their way up the employment ladder to give them and their families opportunities. Making sure that there is an alignment between what our FE colleges are providing and the needs and the opportunities for jobs after a period of learning is absolutely crucial.
I obviously take a great deal of interest in the Augar report. What's interesting about Augar is the headlines, of course, have been dominated around fee structures for FE, but actually the Augar report has some very interesting things to say about lifelong learning. I think, actually, in Wales we are potentially in a position to look at some of those recommendations and perhaps move more swiftly than our colleagues in England, given the chaos that currently reigns. Whether the Augar report will ever see the light of day is another question in terms of an English context. But there are some interesting things that it has to say about FE and adult learning, and, as I said, we're currently working with our partners to ensure that we develop a right to lifelong learning in Wales.
But, of course, the Member talks about opportunities for part-time study. For those people who may have caring or working responsibilities but want the opportunity to re-engage in learning, just two very practical ways in which we're making that a reality is our support for part-time learners. As I said, the Open University has seen a 50 per cent increase in applications just this year because we are proving the financial support to enable those individuals to go back to studying. But I also recognise that a full-time course of that nature might not be right for the individual. Our personal learning accounts will give greater flexibility in our pilot areas in north Wales and south-east Wales where it may be a shorter course or a specific professional qualification that is needed to help you switch your career or move up the career ladder. So, that gives you a flavour of the flexible way in which we're trying to support those people who are trying to engage in learning to assist them and their employment prospects.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It's great to have this statement in Adult Learners Week, because it reminds us that it is never too late. At whatever age you are in life, you keep on learning. It was certainly the case for me when I went back to do my Master's in my mid 30s, it was the case for my late mum when she did her Open University course in her 60s, and it was definitely the case when I was holding a surgery up in Gilfach Goch last Friday, and when, towards the end of the surgery, when I was having a cup of tea, before the day centre provided me with a lovely fish dinner and custard tart as well—before I did that, in came, 70 years young, Gwyn David. Gwyn wanted to tell me a little story. He'd been up here in Cardiff at the old coal exchange last week, at the Inspire! awards. Gwyn David, at 70 years of age—a guy who has not had an easy life and who, at the age of 19, went into Hensol with mild learning difficulties, and spent 20 years of his life overcoming those issues and being told he couldn't achieve—got learner of the year in the Inspire! awards at 70 years young. He loves education, he loves learning, he loves telling other people about it.
And that's what we're here to say: genuinely, whatever it is, whether it's changing career, new training, new education or, frankly, doing things like Bridgend County Borough Council are doing at the moment in every community centre, in every hall, in every library—tourism, IT, consulting, CV writing, buying and selling for small businesses, stress management—we all need that—holiday Spanish, holiday French, organic gardening—. Or Bridgend College, the further education college of the year at the TES further education awards this year, and doubly excellent according to Estyn, providing, in Adult Learners Week this week, free taster sessions in things like horticulture or modern languages, and so on. It is never too late. We all need that second chance. Some of us need a third, fourth and fifth chance as well, but we keep on learning, and I think the statement today is welcome, because it says that, in the myriad of adult learning that we have—full time, part time, taster courses and everything else—everybody should keep on learning and we need to do everything we can in Wales to make sure that people have that opportunity. And my question to the Minister is this: how do we make sure—? What's the best practice in the co-ordination of this so people know that, wherever they are—in Gilfach Goch or in Caerau, or wherever it is, not just in the centres of learning—there are opportunities for them? What's the best practice in sharing that co-ordination so that everybody knows they have that chance to have a second chance?

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I just say in response that I had the opportunity of meeting Gwyn at the awards ceremony? Like the Member has just said, at the age of 19, Gwyn was admitted to Hensol and spent decades of his life in that institution. They were not happy years. He spent much of his time isolated, alone and, I'm ashamed to say, often drugged and sedated. The fact that Gwyn is now living life to the full and is the life and soul of the group in Gilfach is tremendous. And what he had to say to me was that he has no intention of stopping learning any time soon. And what learning has given him is power—power over his life to make decisions about how he spends his time, and power that, for so many years when he was at Hensol, did not belong to him.
If you're not inspired by Gwyn, then you would be inspired by Andrea Garvey, who, as a young mum, aspired to study the law. And now she has done just that. Having completed a law degree at Swansea University, she is currently studying for her Master's at Swansea University. She has a particular passion for miscarriages of justice and has been greatly involved in the work that Swansea law department does looking at cases and looking at new opportunities to examine whether there has been a miscarriage of justice. She was nominated by members of her family who are just so proud of what she has achieved.
I left that evening—and, I don't know, I think we could all do with signing up for the stress management course—and it certainly inspired me to think about doing my Master's, and I'll be older than my 30s, Huw, but, as you said, it's never too late and I may have that opportunity to do just that.
I want to make Wales a second-chance nation, or, as somebody said, maybe we need a third chance, or a fourth chance, or a fifth chance to go back and engage in these activities. We have signed up as a Government to creating that right to lifelong learning. The challenge for me now is to turn that right and that concept into a reality, a reality for the Gwyns of this world, the reality for the Andreas of this world and, who knows, even the reality for the Kirsty Williamses of this world.

Diolch i'r Gweinidog am y datganiad yna.

7. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Legislation (Wales) Bill

That brings us to item 7, which is, however, withdrawn. Therefore, that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:10.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Dai Lloyd: Will the First Minister make a statement on the economic impact of the proposed closure of the Ford engine plant in Bridgend?

Mark Drakeford: Ford’s announcement concerning the largest single loss of jobs in Wales this decade is obviously devastating news. Consequently, the Minister for Economy and Transport has announced the establishment of a multi-agency taskforce to help find a sustainable, long term solution for the plant and its workforce.

Neil McEvoy: Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for tenant farmers?

Mark Drakeford: Tenant farmers have access to the same support offered to all farmers in Wales. We are consulting on improving agricultural tenancy legislation. Regulatory reform and the development of future agricultural schemes will be based on the principle that tenants will have equal access to farm support.

Nick Ramsay: Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government's economic priorities for south-east Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The 'Prosperity for All' National Strategy and the Economic Action Plan set out the actions we are taking to improve and strengthen the economy and business environment across the whole of Wales.